Comment by kbp | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kbp | Hacker News Reader

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> Companies I've seen don't care if you have fundamental knowledge of algorithms and data structures. They are testing you on specific frameworks via interview questions and take home projects

No, I got that. My point was that no one cares that you completed an algorithms and data structures course, they care that you know the fundamentals of (the subgenre they're interested in of) software development. You're just using a definiton of "fundamentals" that excludes the (entirely language and framework independent) concepts they care about that you don't know.

A take home project using a specific language and framework does not require you to know either to complete it before you start; if you know the concepts, you can pick them up as you're writing it. If you've never seen MVC before (and the knowledge you have doesn't allow you to grok it fast), then in a web dev context I would argue that that is a fundamental concept you are missing, which was my point.

Interview questions can be different, but you didn't mention them in the post I responded to.

My definition of fundamentals is more traditional CS algorithms and data structures, not "fundamentals" to a specific genre of the software development genre outside of traditional CS algorithms (ones start up companies or what have you are interested in). The fundamental taught in a traditional CS program may exclude the fundamentals that start ups use day-to-day and the fundamentals taught in traditional CS programs many be useless to startups.

So, while a student may have strong CS theory, they may lack industry specific "fundamentals" and companies may discriminate against those candidates because they lack that industry specific skills (that otherwise could easily be picked up).

I argue that traditional fundamentals as defined above are more important than industry specific tooling or frameworks, since the tooling or frameworks change but the core theory does not. I would like industries to not discriminate against graduates that come from a strong theory background but weak industry specific background, since these people should be able to pick up whatever tooling or frameworks on the job.

> companies may discriminate against those candidates because they lack that industry specific skills (that otherwise could easily be picked up).

What does "otherwise" mean, here? The context we were discussing is that they asked you to quickly pick it up in a take-home assignment, and you couldn't pick it up that quickly. I don't see how this is them being shortsighted; it sounds like you just not delivering on the promise of your "fundamentals".

> the tooling or frameworks change but the core theory does not.

I 100% agree: someone who learnt MVC with Smalltalk in 1979 won't have any trouble picking up Rails' or Django's or whatever's version today. The concepts are timeless.

edit: to boil it down:

> these people should be able to pick up whatever tooling or frameworks on the job.

Yes, and if they can, they won't have trouble picking it up in the process of writing a take-home assignment. If they can't do that, then they just failed a litmus test.

>you couldn't pick it up that quickly. I don't see how this is them being shortsighted; it sounds like you just not delivering on the promise of your "fundamentals".

I never failed any take home assignments, so this isn't about me. I am speaking more generally and not about me personally. My point is fundamentals don't change, frameworks do.

Edit: For some reason I can't reply to your response of this question. But no problem. I see your point and I do agree with what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying.

> I never failed any take home assignments, so this isn't about me. I am speaking more generally and not about me personally.

It was generic "you", the hypothetical person who was having trouble with take home assignments but not interview questions that you were talking about initially. All of my points were about that hypothetical person, and not you personally. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

> My point is fundamentals don't change, frameworks do.

Yes, that's what I was addressing. Companies aren't asking about frameworks when they give you a take home question, they're asking you to learn the framework if need be, which will be easy if you know the fundamentals. I'm not sure where you're getting lost on this point.

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