If they had separate currencies, Spain could inflate away a lot of their debt. This would cause a bunch of pain for your average Spaniard, but it would also mean that Spain's currency devaluation could drastically help its exports (and of course one of Southern Europe's most valuable "exports" is tourism). A direct consequence of being on the Euro is exactly what you point out: labor isn't really cheap enough to be competitive.
Which is why Euro is good for Southern European countries: it forces them to concentrate on productivity rather than economic alchemy. Spanish labor got too expensive? You don't need a government to inflate your currency, you just start lowering your rates. My fellow Italian workers cannot find a job? Stop talking about "articolo 18", stop looking for assured indefinite term contracts, accept the reality! Enterprises know ups and downs: when thing go well, they'll be happy to pay you good money for your services, but when hell breaks loose your salary will be a burden for them. Either accept that employment contracts can be terminated before your retreat, or keep up the good work... uh, keep up the work... just keep up!
Every time I read histrionics about how the euro is a straightjacket, a trap, an evil German plan to benefit itself at the cost of its neighbours etc I just sigh. I am not even a supporter of the EU, but blaming the euro for low southern productivity is just wrong. The PIGS countries aren't seeing high unemployment and poverty because of the euro. They'd still have high unemployment even if they had their own currencies. The causes are fundamental.
All a floating currency would do is make it easy for them to screw over lenders in the short term by inflating their debts, which would be compensated by the markets charging much higher rates (this already happens because investors fear default instead of inflation). It'd also act as a forcing function to require the people living there charge (foreigners) prices that are reasonable for what they can provide, rather than expect them to accept market realities and actually lower their prices in order to compete.
It is unrealistic to expect that countries will somehow not be able to solve their financial issues just because they lost one tool. That's an excuse, not a reason.
Germany lost it, too. If it worked for Germany, why not trying to learn from their experience rather than keeping complaining?
In other words, it took away one insignificant burden on travelling, something which people do a best a few weeks a year, and in exchange it devastated their jobs and communities, for which they depend on survival (and for having the money to travel) all year long...
>These days an EU citizen can up and leave to a different EU country with very little friction
Yes, and usually with tears in their eyes, because they're forced to leave their country, culture, friends and close family to go work on some country that did better. Often even at 40 years old or later, and after their job in their own country crushed, because (among other things) of the Euro. The saddest songs in most southern countries are about migrating.
The kind of migration you describe is only a good thing (and a chosen option) for more privileged people who chose to do it and can chose to live where they want at a whim -- not for the millions merely forced to go find work elsewhere.
>which was the idea
Yeah, just not an idea that people asked for -- just the dream of the elites that created and pushed for it.
The US suffers from the same problem. The rural interior has dropped out, towns have turned into ghost towns, and instead of picking up and moving for greener pastures, people cling to hope that their livelihoods will return.
They won't. The wheels of capitalism are ruthless. The market forces capital to become more efficient over time, and capital has left in search of higher efficiency. People can stay behind and wither or get with the program and move and thrive.
Freedom of movement in the EU is so precious precisely because it offers the choice to avoid desolation, to not be stuck in a place with no opportunity and no future. A unified currency is precious precisely because it is a store of wealth that transports across the Union without loss or risk of sudden inflation. If people decide not to make these choices that is their fault and theirs alone. It's not easy to pick up and move to a new place with a new language - I've done it myself - but it is very, very much doable, and the world's poorest do it every day, picking up and moving to the US/EU in search of opportunities which were completely absent in their home countries.
Well, slavery and poverty aren't new either, but at some point it would be good we'd left them behind.
Migration by reasoned choice is OK -- forced mass migration for man-made causes (war, unemployment, wealth distribution, kleptocracy, ecological disaster, etc) is bad, and we should fix its causes.
>They won't. The wheels of capitalism are ruthless. The market forces capital to become more efficient over time, and capital has left in search of higher efficiency.
Well, I don't believe in bending over to blind forces of nature. That is a regression to primitivism, when we made altars of forces like the thunder or rain that we could not control.
I believe in people actively shaping their future and their societies, and not just by reacting to some "market forces".
Capital would have us all live in slums and lick our master's boots if they could absolutely have its way.
>Freedom of movement in the EU is so precious precisely because it offers the choice to avoid desolation, to not be stuck in a place with no opportunity and no future.
Until now, the EU was enforced, and follows the politics, that precisely create this desolation, and turns countries into places "with no opportunity and no future".
Not playing that musical chairs game is the wiser choice.
No one failed, we just didn't want to (for reasons very obvious now, in hindsight).
Also, the countries (Spain, Greece, Portugal...) accumulated most of the debt _after_ they got the Euro precisely because the Euro enabled them to do so.
Would you mind explaining a bit more, please?
Thats why they still can borrow cheap money despite being basically broke
Yeah, and that experiment has gone very well... /s
What it actually does is cripple them from one of the major tools to control your own economy. It's no "alchemy", it's a tool -- the greatest economies of the world use it whenever they have to.
Tourism seems to be pretty price inelastic to be honest (as seen by neverending lines and crowds).
> labor isn't really cheap enough to be competitive
Minimum wage in Spain is lower than in other https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Eu...
And this applies even for higher pay functions, it is usually lower than even Germany.
I'd attribute their lack of growth more than internal culture (management culture, investor culture, etc), lack of investment and other factors.
Many of these are the counties that are beneficiaries of the policy. Ireland is a more reasonable counter- similar problems to Spain, but a good recovery.
Additionally and more concerning is that there is also a very real sense in Barcelona that “innovation happens elsewhere” when you talk to these same smart people. It is strange and it is like they’re looking for permission to do something different. It is almost as if the social contructs support doing things the way they’ve always been done.
Example: Even side projects would never get shipped and when I probed as to why my friend told me he “couldn't justify spending effort on this project to his family because he wasn’t getting paid for the work.” ... he had already built it the entire website and codebase and never shipped. (Surreal)
I like another commenter think about starting my next venture in Spain but my gut and experience says it would be a bad idea if you needed to hire tech talent locally.
It is not the status. For long being a manager was the only way of getting a reasonable salary and to get to older age with a job. Developers were young and badly paid. It existed a generation for whom being a developer or just knowing about computer was a high pay job, but that disappeared fast.
Nowadays is changing fast. The main factor is companies that create product instead of consultancy companies that sell labour. For a consultancy, their profit is the difference between what a company pays and what the employee gets a salary. For a company with a product, the product quality, features and development time is important, so they pay and respect developers a lot more.
I have been part of the indie game development scene in Barcelona. I have met several people in their twenties, half my age, with published successful games in mobile stores and Steam.
Barcelona, the city I know, is changing fast for the better. Even that it is going to take time to get rid of the old habits. But I can see myself going back in a decade if they want to hire a developer in his fifties.
Care to elaborate? Genuinely curious. Spain does attract expats, they are however often pensioners.
Usually engineers aren't that well regarded in Spain, people tend to aim to get into management.
Other than that, salaries are pretty low and work culture is quite intense at most places, with people usually working ~10 hours a day. This is aided by the general lack of options in the market and a quite high degree of conformity which is a byproduct of the rigid educational system in Spain and which most graduates are embued with.
Innovation, aside from a couple startups is lacking as most of the ecosystem is made of big consulting companies which have agreed to set cap on salaries to protect their shrinking margins resulting from years of cranking poor code by replaceable coders working in bad conditions.
However, things are getting better with the arrival of some international companies like Xing or local successes like Cabify.
Spain is a really attractive place for high tech, with most of the Mediterranean coast boasting Californian climate with Richmond house prices, great cuisine, high level of services comparable to Northern Europe and quite open culture. So it's logically pretty undervalued in my eyes.
(1) Favoritism: Knowing or being the right person is quite more important than doing a good job. In small companies usually the boss family and close friends are in the top positions. Usually the best way to move upwards is to kiss your boss ass rather than being a good professional. Pretty much the opposite of a meritocracy.
(2) 'Low level corruption': We all talk about the big scandals, the ones that move millions and fill the news. We talk less about what I call 'low level corruption', or everyday small acts of corruption. Not paying taxes, cheating on the utilities, doing some underhanded businesses. It is quite disheartening when you are trying to be an honest citizen. Feeds a lot on point (1).
(3) Conformism: Most people have little ambition in terms of professional development. Spain is one of those countries where civil servant is a dream job. People look for easy and stable jobs where they can get just enough money to get by, and enjoy their free time. Live is pretty good due to the cost of living and public services, and because of (1) chances are you won't get far no matter how hard you try, so why bother? An extensive support network of family and friends gets you covered in most cases, so people are not really worried about hitting rock bottom.
(4) Envy: Maybe due to (3) society as a whole is full of envy and jealousy. We tend to say that this is a country of 'cainites', in reference to Cain, the biblical character who killed his own brother. We also say 'Nobody is a prophet in their own land', another biblical phrase to signify how hard is to get recognized by your peers. We seem to be happier being mediocre together rather than people sticking out. As one of my friends says, 'if I get screwed, everyone gets screwed', as he would sabotage anything that doesn't go his way. Instead of keeping up with the Joneses, we would try to drag them down to the mud with us.
(5) Bad social and economic status for specialized workers: As I said in Spain a civil servant is a dream job. On the opposite side, most specialized jobs are not really valued in any way. Software Engineers would have good economic and social status in other countries; not so much over there. You would be mocked as a geek and nerd by your peers and your work wouldn't be appreciated. Salaries are much lower than other developed countries, not only because of cost of living, but proportionally too. In some places you would be paid a working class income.
Put all these points together and you can see why we can't attract talent. Poorly regarded social status and income, in a place that doesn't value you, with very few opportunities and chances to advance your career.
> Spain is one of those countries where civil servant is a dream job
Not any longer, at least not in my circles. Years of neglect by the goverment and bad publicity by all actors have made civil servant's jobs both scarce and not that attractive. If there is any other alternative it's prefered over this.
> 'Low level corruption' [...] doing some underhanded businesses
Unfortunately Spannish economy depends on this. People have a meager salary, self employed people cannot demand the correct price for their services (most of the time) because people cannot pay it, so they don't have enough to pay taxes, that means less money for everyone in a vicious circle.
So we don't have enough jobs for everyone, and the taxes self employed people suffer impose most of them a decision: evade some or close shop. Being that the second option is non-sustainable (not enough jobs, remember?) they tend to do the first.
The rest are quite spot on and I agree with them.
I recently moved to France and had at one point considered moving to Spain. My wife and I are Canadians and we both wanted a change of pace from North America. Although France's visa scheme is somewhat more difficult and expensive than Spain's appeared to be we ended up going with France because you can get Permanent Residence and/or Citizenship after 5 years. And I can keep my Canadian citizenship. Spain is 10 years and the only way to be a dual citizen is if you're born in Spain or to Spanish parents.
It's pretty decent and more companies are moving here now. I mean occasionally you see ridiculously low salaries but I used to see that in London too.
I think the education system could be improved to help more people learn English and encourage people into fields that offer better prospects - but the latter seems to be a problem in almost all countries.