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Comment by DavidVoid | Hacker News Reader

If you're interested in getting a tiny keyboard then there are actually quite a few other "too" small custom keyboards which unlike the one in the OP are fairly usable. Some examples:

The ortholinear layout Gherkin: http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html

The THKB - Tiny Hacking Keyboard: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/thkb-tiny-hacking-keyboa...

The split MiniDox: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6rh8mp...

Personally I use a slightly larger 60% HHKB Pro 2 which imo has a great layout (and fantastic switches!): https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keycha...

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> Personally I use a slightly larger 60% HHKB Pro 2 which imo has a great layout (and fantastic switches!)

Ugh light gray keyboard is ugly if the rest of your computer hardware isn't in light gray (which is common these days).

Thankfully they have a dark gray version as well [1]. Just the price at 220 USD seems... expensive.

How noisy are these switches?

I also require USB on the right side for USB fingerprint reader / YubiKey. On the left or back side is less convenient since I use my right hand for both. Then I might as well use my USB hub.

Also, what's up with keyboard not supporting USB 3?

[1] https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hh...

> How noisy are these switches?

The topre switches are generally quiet [1]

The HHKB product is an older product and I am not aware of any revisions to support USB 3. If I was going to buy a keyboard to use partly as a USB hub I would do research to ensure that the hub there met all of my requirements such as voltage [2]

Plenty of other "60%" style products have entered the marketplace and flooded the niche so there are better alternatives to the HHKB albeit not Topre based

[1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch#Key_feel [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5o8g27...

> Ugh light gray keyboard is ugly if the rest of your computer hardware isn't in light gray (which is common these days).

I think it looks pretty good but I have the version with blank keycaps which I use on a white desk so I think it fits in pretty well.

> Just the price at 220 USD seems... expensive.

It is unfortunately expensive. This is mostly due to the switches since it uses electrostatic capacitive Topre switches[1] and not Cherry MX-style switches which are otherwise very common in keyboards nowadays.

> How noisy are these switches?

The stock version is fairly noisy but nowhere near as noisy as say Cherry MX Blue or buckling spring switches. It really depends on what the keyboard is on though since the stock feet are pretty bad which means the sound can get amplified by the table that it's on (many people put some shelf liner under it).

There is a quieter Type-S version that's more expensive but you can achieve the same affect by modifying the stock version.

Some typing videos:

Stock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hWTxQqoIuY

Modified stock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ1aI3HmF2E

Type S vs. stock comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSimmbuFGpQ

> Also, what's up with keyboard not supporting USB 3?

The HHKB Pro 2 was introduced in 2006, two years before the USB 3.0 specification had been completed. A Pro 3 version has yet to be announced but they did release a Bluetooth version two years ago.

[1]: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

Also using a HHKB Pro 2, without prints. Best keyboard I ever had.

My alternative would be Atreus, but I am not that into building keyboards. https://atreus.technomancy.us/

I use and Atreus, and it's a pretty excellent / cheaper tiny alternative to the ErgoDox. The soldering portion is fairly simple, though definitely repetitive.

ErgoDone(chinese clone of ergodox) is also cheaper and easier to build can be found on aliexpress

Why aren't all keyboards ortholinear? Designing keyboards with staggered keys is absurd.

Staggered is easier to type on, especially with small keyboards. Prevents you having to angle your wrists too much.

This is not true. What makes you think that?

Just picture how your wrists need to hold your hands so that fingers extend straight up from the home row. Unless your rib cage is infinitely thin, or your arms infinitely long, your arms are going to come together on that keyboard at angles that diverge strongly from the line between your solarplexus and the center of your monitor(s). Your wrists have to twist your hands enough to make your fingers point parallel to that imaginary line.

There is AT LEAST one very good reason that ortholinear keyboards have not taken off, and I've just described it.

I use a Kinesis Advantage2, which has a split ortholinear keyboard and it is by far the most comfortable keyboard I’ve ever typed on. After switching, I really never want to go back to a staggared keyboard ever again. None of what you describe is the case for me (although, its worth adding that the Advantage keyboards are split layout ergonomic keyboards).

This is the keyboard alignment I was talking about: https://i.imgur.com/IiAGGULh.jpg

I don't see how your keyboard could legitimately use the word "linear" in it's description in any way. All I see are curved key "cups" and nothing linear at all.

The vertical alignment is in a straight line, but yes absolutely, the curvature of the keys likely has a role to play to make it as comfortable as it is. But if you look at the keys from the top, they are in a straight grid like the keyboard you linked.

I use a Kinesis Advantage. The keyboards is split into two angled ortholinear sections. It's the best layout I've ever used.

Look at your staggered keyboard. The left and right sections are not even symmetrical. Put your fingers on the home row, then naturally extend them to the next row. You will see that they're all over the place.

Staggered keys are a relic from typewriters, not an ergonomic design choice.

I was referring to this layout: https://i.imgur.com/IiAGGULh.jpg

That this keyboard and a kinesis can both call themselves "ortholinear" is just one of the many indicators of complete and total insanity amongst the mechanical keyboard community. There is nothing linear about a kinesis advantage.

Ortholinear goes very very well with split keyboards. that way you can put the left and right parts on an angle that your fingers follow. After using the ergodox and iris, I'm not going back to a "normal" keyboard ever again.

Horizontal or vertical staggers?

In my personal opinion, default keyboards (horizontally staggered) are a pain to use, I loathe them and have my ideas why they still adopt that century old layout even if they don't have the mechanical constraint of the typewriters (mostly inertia).

I have never tried the Kinesis Advantage but I have an Ergodox (that I don't use) and a TECK that's my daily driver; I find the vertical stagger layout (keys aligned on columns) the most natural for the hands (switched to Colemak 2~3 years ago, but that is another can of worms ^__^;).

Ortholinear/matrix style, even if never tried I suspect I wouldn't like it, I'm thinking about the Plank models I've seen that use the Signature Plastic DSA keycaps. I have them on my Ergodox, the flat look is fabulous but I find it uncomfortable (the plan is to sell it and invest in a Advantage 2)...

As to why keyboards are staggered in the first place, it is because a staggered layout allowed typewriters to have straight levers to the type guide (where they hammer down onto the paper). By having a straight vertical slice for each key, this meant that keys would not get easily jammed.

Obviously electronic keyboards do not require this same constraint, but tradition is difficult to change.

If anyone is looking at 60% keyboards, I suggest they take a look at the KBC Pok3r too - it's heavily programmable (on-keyboard), unlike many of the options listed above.

On a 60% keyboard which has many keys missing, programmability not only 'brings back' those keys but also (in my experience) made for a more natural experience than a full-sized board, since programmed keys are within my hands' natural reach (for example, I put some on the home row).

I have a Pok3r and a Core, and while I love the Pok3r, my one complaint is that its macros are a bit limited. My Core lets me make macros that are pretty long. For example, I have a macro on my Core (at work) that just checks out the current working branch in Git and pulls it (basically just `git checkout v1.0-working&&git pull`). This macro is too long for the Pok3r but the Core will accept it.

I can get around it with git aliases, at least.

Of course, if your macros are small or just keycombos, then you're fine. The Pok3r is probably a better fit for most folks as a 40% can be a pretty big adjustment. I can't wait for the Poker 4, that's for sure. The Poker line is pretty nice.

What other macros do you use? I consider getting a programmable keyboard for getting more simple shortcuts in IDEs

Mostly just Git macros and regular key combos, honestly. The needs of my workflow are fairly limited these days. My keyboard at home (Diverge 3) has macros for switching my default audio device, but those are just Ctrl+Shift+F[7,8,9], each mapped to a two-key macro (Fn+[Y,H,N], respectively).

Anything you typically need three or more keystrokes to do can be made more efficient with macros, since without special keys, macros are floored to two keystrokes.

You might also consider a macropad. I have a Falcon-8 from Max[0] that I use for my media keys and I love it. There's also a DIY kit[1] that is a bit cheaper, and better if you want switches/keycaps/etc. that they don't offer with the assembled version of DIY kit.

[0]: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/max-falcon-8-rgb-custom-programma...

[1]: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/max-falcon-8-rgb-programmable-min...

How do you manage without arrow keys? I use a Cooler Master "M" sized keyboard which combines the arrow keys and a number pad. It's the smallest usable keyboard that works for me: http://www.coolermaster.com/peripheral/keyboards/masterkeys-...

I use a kbp v60 (see manual[1], switches 1,3,6 on), caps lock is remapped to an fn key, then there are arrow keys both on the left and right hand. I haven't had any trouble getting used to it, and its wonderful not having to move my hand half way across the desk to reach the mouse.

[1]: https://www.scribd.com/document/227820785/KBP-V60-User-Manua...

What do you use arrow keys for? For example for Vi(m) you can just use hjkl. For gaming, you can just use wasd.

If you really do need arrow keys, get a keyboard which doesn't have a keypad.

I don't think I have any other reason to use them apart from muscle memory--I can't live without them now...

That's a valid personal reason to not want change, and a difficult one to tackle for alternative keyboard layouts.

Only reason I'd use them is shell (Bash/Fish in my case). In gaming and Vi(m) I just use the better alternatives which require less movement of the hand.

It does have arrow keys... I believe you hold the spacebar.

(and to be clear, while I'm OP, this is not my project, just thought it was cool/funny)

I have a Pok3r and the arrow keys are the one thing I miss. They are still there, but awkward to get at. I use emacs and don't need arrows for that as it uses different bindings. Many programs use those emacs binding too (like bash, less etc) but there are always some that only work with arrow keys.

> How do you manage without arrow keys?

It has pretty easy to use arrow keys in a function layer. I just hold down the Fn key with my right pinky and use my right index and middle finger to hit the arrow cluster (see https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keycha... ).

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