Pain27 keyboard | Hacker News Reader

Pain27 keyboard

github.com

98 pointssodapopcan82 comments

If you're interested in getting a tiny keyboard then there are actually quite a few other "too" small custom keyboards which unlike the one in the OP are fairly usable. Some examples:

The ortholinear layout Gherkin: http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html

The THKB - Tiny Hacking Keyboard: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/thkb-tiny-hacking-keyboa...

The split MiniDox: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6rh8mp...

Personally I use a slightly larger 60% HHKB Pro 2 which imo has a great layout (and fantastic switches!): https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keycha...

Why aren't all keyboards ortholinear? Designing keyboards with staggered keys is absurd.

Staggered is easier to type on, especially with small keyboards. Prevents you having to angle your wrists too much.

This is not true. What makes you think that?

Just picture how your wrists need to hold your hands so that fingers extend straight up from the home row. Unless your rib cage is infinitely thin, or your arms infinitely long, your arms are going to come together on that keyboard at angles that diverge strongly from the line between your solarplexus and the center of your monitor(s). Your wrists have to twist your hands enough to make your fingers point parallel to that imaginary line.

There is AT LEAST one very good reason that ortholinear keyboards have not taken off, and I've just described it.

I use a Kinesis Advantage2, which has a split ortholinear keyboard and it is by far the most comfortable keyboard I’ve ever typed on. After switching, I really never want to go back to a staggared keyboard ever again. None of what you describe is the case for me (although, its worth adding that the Advantage keyboards are split layout ergonomic keyboards).

This is the keyboard alignment I was talking about: https://i.imgur.com/IiAGGULh.jpg

I don't see how your keyboard could legitimately use the word "linear" in it's description in any way. All I see are curved key "cups" and nothing linear at all.

The vertical alignment is in a straight line, but yes absolutely, the curvature of the keys likely has a role to play to make it as comfortable as it is. But if you look at the keys from the top, they are in a straight grid like the keyboard you linked.

I use a Kinesis Advantage. The keyboards is split into two angled ortholinear sections. It's the best layout I've ever used.

Look at your staggered keyboard. The left and right sections are not even symmetrical. Put your fingers on the home row, then naturally extend them to the next row. You will see that they're all over the place.

Staggered keys are a relic from typewriters, not an ergonomic design choice.

I was referring to this layout: https://i.imgur.com/IiAGGULh.jpg

That this keyboard and a kinesis can both call themselves "ortholinear" is just one of the many indicators of complete and total insanity amongst the mechanical keyboard community. There is nothing linear about a kinesis advantage.

Ortholinear goes very very well with split keyboards. that way you can put the left and right parts on an angle that your fingers follow. After using the ergodox and iris, I'm not going back to a "normal" keyboard ever again.

Horizontal or vertical staggers?

In my personal opinion, default keyboards (horizontally staggered) are a pain to use, I loathe them and have my ideas why they still adopt that century old layout even if they don't have the mechanical constraint of the typewriters (mostly inertia).

I have never tried the Kinesis Advantage but I have an Ergodox (that I don't use) and a TECK that's my daily driver; I find the vertical stagger layout (keys aligned on columns) the most natural for the hands (switched to Colemak 2~3 years ago, but that is another can of worms ^__^;).

Ortholinear/matrix style, even if never tried I suspect I wouldn't like it, I'm thinking about the Plank models I've seen that use the Signature Plastic DSA keycaps. I have them on my Ergodox, the flat look is fabulous but I find it uncomfortable (the plan is to sell it and invest in a Advantage 2)...

As to why keyboards are staggered in the first place, it is because a staggered layout allowed typewriters to have straight levers to the type guide (where they hammer down onto the paper). By having a straight vertical slice for each key, this meant that keys would not get easily jammed.

Obviously electronic keyboards do not require this same constraint, but tradition is difficult to change.

Also using a HHKB Pro 2, without prints. Best keyboard I ever had.

My alternative would be Atreus, but I am not that into building keyboards. https://atreus.technomancy.us/

I use and Atreus, and it's a pretty excellent / cheaper tiny alternative to the ErgoDox. The soldering portion is fairly simple, though definitely repetitive.

ErgoDone(chinese clone of ergodox) is also cheaper and easier to build can be found on aliexpress

How do you manage without arrow keys? I use a Cooler Master "M" sized keyboard which combines the arrow keys and a number pad. It's the smallest usable keyboard that works for me: http://www.coolermaster.com/peripheral/keyboards/masterkeys-...

I use a kbp v60 (see manual[1], switches 1,3,6 on), caps lock is remapped to an fn key, then there are arrow keys both on the left and right hand. I haven't had any trouble getting used to it, and its wonderful not having to move my hand half way across the desk to reach the mouse.

[1]: https://www.scribd.com/document/227820785/KBP-V60-User-Manua...

What do you use arrow keys for? For example for Vi(m) you can just use hjkl. For gaming, you can just use wasd.

If you really do need arrow keys, get a keyboard which doesn't have a keypad.

I don't think I have any other reason to use them apart from muscle memory--I can't live without them now...

That's a valid personal reason to not want change, and a difficult one to tackle for alternative keyboard layouts.

Only reason I'd use them is shell (Bash/Fish in my case). In gaming and Vi(m) I just use the better alternatives which require less movement of the hand.

It does have arrow keys... I believe you hold the spacebar.

(and to be clear, while I'm OP, this is not my project, just thought it was cool/funny)

I have a Pok3r and the arrow keys are the one thing I miss. They are still there, but awkward to get at. I use emacs and don't need arrows for that as it uses different bindings. Many programs use those emacs binding too (like bash, less etc) but there are always some that only work with arrow keys.

> How do you manage without arrow keys?

It has pretty easy to use arrow keys in a function layer. I just hold down the Fn key with my right pinky and use my right index and middle finger to hit the arrow cluster (see https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/keycha... ).

If anyone is looking at 60% keyboards, I suggest they take a look at the KBC Pok3r too - it's heavily programmable (on-keyboard), unlike many of the options listed above.

On a 60% keyboard which has many keys missing, programmability not only 'brings back' those keys but also (in my experience) made for a more natural experience than a full-sized board, since programmed keys are within my hands' natural reach (for example, I put some on the home row).

I have a Pok3r and a Core, and while I love the Pok3r, my one complaint is that its macros are a bit limited. My Core lets me make macros that are pretty long. For example, I have a macro on my Core (at work) that just checks out the current working branch in Git and pulls it (basically just `git checkout v1.0-working&&git pull`). This macro is too long for the Pok3r but the Core will accept it.

I can get around it with git aliases, at least.

Of course, if your macros are small or just keycombos, then you're fine. The Pok3r is probably a better fit for most folks as a 40% can be a pretty big adjustment. I can't wait for the Poker 4, that's for sure. The Poker line is pretty nice.

What other macros do you use? I consider getting a programmable keyboard for getting more simple shortcuts in IDEs

Mostly just Git macros and regular key combos, honestly. The needs of my workflow are fairly limited these days. My keyboard at home (Diverge 3) has macros for switching my default audio device, but those are just Ctrl+Shift+F[7,8,9], each mapped to a two-key macro (Fn+[Y,H,N], respectively).

Anything you typically need three or more keystrokes to do can be made more efficient with macros, since without special keys, macros are floored to two keystrokes.

You might also consider a macropad. I have a Falcon-8 from Max[0] that I use for my media keys and I love it. There's also a DIY kit[1] that is a bit cheaper, and better if you want switches/keycaps/etc. that they don't offer with the assembled version of DIY kit.

[0]: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/max-falcon-8-rgb-custom-programma...

[1]: http://www.maxkeyboard.com/max-falcon-8-rgb-programmable-min...

> Personally I use a slightly larger 60% HHKB Pro 2 which imo has a great layout (and fantastic switches!)

Ugh light gray keyboard is ugly if the rest of your computer hardware isn't in light gray (which is common these days).

Thankfully they have a dark gray version as well [1]. Just the price at 220 USD seems... expensive.

How noisy are these switches?

I also require USB on the right side for USB fingerprint reader / YubiKey. On the left or back side is less convenient since I use my right hand for both. Then I might as well use my USB hub.

Also, what's up with keyboard not supporting USB 3?

[1] https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hh...

> How noisy are these switches?

The topre switches are generally quiet [1]

The HHKB product is an older product and I am not aware of any revisions to support USB 3. If I was going to buy a keyboard to use partly as a USB hub I would do research to ensure that the hub there met all of my requirements such as voltage [2]

Plenty of other "60%" style products have entered the marketplace and flooded the niche so there are better alternatives to the HHKB albeit not Topre based

[1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch#Key_feel [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5o8g27...

> Ugh light gray keyboard is ugly if the rest of your computer hardware isn't in light gray (which is common these days).

I think it looks pretty good but I have the version with blank keycaps which I use on a white desk so I think it fits in pretty well.

> Just the price at 220 USD seems... expensive.

It is unfortunately expensive. This is mostly due to the switches since it uses electrostatic capacitive Topre switches[1] and not Cherry MX-style switches which are otherwise very common in keyboards nowadays.

> How noisy are these switches?

The stock version is fairly noisy but nowhere near as noisy as say Cherry MX Blue or buckling spring switches. It really depends on what the keyboard is on though since the stock feet are pretty bad which means the sound can get amplified by the table that it's on (many people put some shelf liner under it).

There is a quieter Type-S version that's more expensive but you can achieve the same affect by modifying the stock version.

Some typing videos:

Stock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hWTxQqoIuY

Modified stock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ1aI3HmF2E

Type S vs. stock comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSimmbuFGpQ

> Also, what's up with keyboard not supporting USB 3?

The HHKB Pro 2 was introduced in 2006, two years before the USB 3.0 specification had been completed. A Pro 3 version has yet to be announced but they did release a Bluetooth version two years ago.

[1]: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

Wow, aptly named. Now with a couple of foot pedals, one for shift and one for control? That could be something.

Now to be fair, it would be a little absurd to build the most compact possible keyboard, yet get stuck carrying around some foot pedals like you're headed to a lan party with racing games or something.

But sometimes a little absurd is cool when it comes to custom keyboards. I kind of want to build this or the Gherkin posted above!

I agree, that's ridiculous.

Clearly, a sip/puff/bite controller would be more convenient, both in terms of compactness and usability.

Or midi breath control, where you have to modulate your breath pressure to get shift, alt, alt+shift, control, etc. Surely most people can handle 4 bits of resolution with their breath power, right?

Suck/blow + hard/soft

True, but these days you could put a couple of wireless accelerometers into the shoelaces of each shoe and have that be your pedals. if they had LEDs and blinked they would be chic coture :-)

Yes, a Bluetooth 6DOF accelerometer/orientation sensor/magnetometer affixed to each shoe and you're sorted. I've long wanted to see a pair of such sensors set up as MIDI controllers. If you're using them on uneven or moving surfaces you might want separate sensors for heel and toe.

I like the concept of foot pedals as a form of computer input but I then I'm reminded of this story (fake or not) about why you probably shouldn't use foot pedals as a push-to-talk button in games.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/3q88s5/tifu_by_using_...

A video of someone actually building and typing on one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIDs8tq5Pa4

This was captivating. Love that he goes through the entire build process and then at the end says:

> As for the actual usability, it’s terrible. Absolutely terrible. I didn’t even try to use it for more than a couple of minutes because I don’t have the time. This is purely a display piece, because for anything that isn’t a speed typing test, it was just too much to access the other keys.

If you like this, see http://www.40percent.club/

In particular: http://www.40percent.club/2016/11/gherkin.html

(The Gherkin is a 30%, not a 40%!)

I mean people actually use and enjoy for day-to-day use 40% keyboards like the Planck. I don't think they Pain27 is to be used by anyone for anything other than WPM tests.

Not really too much worse than the old TI-99/4A keyboard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TI-99/4A#/me...

Man, the number of times I hit function-= (reset the computer) on that thing when I meant shift-=... lots of lost unsaved work.

The backwards compatibility users require (myself included) holds back innovation, in so many ways.

The problem with any non-standard keyboard is it being non-standard. The biggest problem is a different layout than Qwerty (though its a bit more complex; e.g. Azerty is standard in Belgium, Colemak is only marginally different from Qwerty, whereas Dvorak is completely different).

If the layout sticks to the defacto standard (Qwerty) then you can argue less is more. However, there are some minimum needs and once keys have different positions compared to a dumbed down Qwerty keyboard (without keypad or keypad + arrows + the other [6 + 3] keys on the right). It also depends on what you're used to. Having used the keyboard on Nokia E71 and Nokia N900 and Nokia N810 I lost a lot of CLI speed just from factors such as: non-standard keybinds (e.g. requiring combos for standard Bash and Emacs keybinds), non-standard amount of keys, small keys, with not much travel.

There are many examples mentioned in this thread. Some membrane, some mechanical, but generally full size keys just without keys such as spacebar, enter, tab, caps, alt, etc. The only keys which can be removed from a keyboard without compromising UNIX CLI usage are caps lock and "function" (Windows key etc). With the notion that caps lock is already rebinded to escape by Vi(m) users.

This seems to be the opposite direction of what I like out of keyboards.

I want more keys - keys I can program to do things - not less keys.

I think (I hope...) this particular keyboard is a satirical commentary on the shrinking keyboards in the mechanical keyboard community. I do agree with you, though—I don't understand the trend toward less keys.

+1, this.

Semi-seriously, I appreciate the Pain27 as an art/hacking project and having a bit of fun with the "less keys are always better," but I don't understand the value of making desktop keyboards -- that is, ones that aren't intended to be portable -- ever more "compact." Removing the number keypad makes sense if you don't use it, and if you keep your mouse/trackpad on the right side of your keyboard. But I use the navigation keys pretty regularly; I don't use the function keys that often, but use them often enough that I notice when they're not there. And if portability is the actual concern, well, you probably want something thinner than most mechanical keyboards unless you're really dedicated. I just ordered another mechanical myself (a KBParadise V80 with Matias Quiet Click switches) so I could have one at work and one at home, which I suspect qualifies me as dedicated -- but for a keyboard I'm actually carrying around with me in a bag, I'll take Apple's Magic Keyboard or something from Logitech of comparable size and weight, thanks.

So, 60%-and-below keyboard nerds: what is it I'm missing?

I have a 60% (I think. Not sure how the percentages are figured). It's also ortholinear, and it gave me a chance to reinvent the layout and what keys should appear. (https://i.imgur.com/9F0k3zv.jpg, and https://imgur.com/yMdkEnP.jpg)

I ditched the number pad, the function keys, and the navigation cluster. That freed up room to separate the two halves of the keyboard and put a bunch of symbols in the center.

I've always wanted to use hjkl as my arrow keys anyway, now I can do that. Function keys used to be a stretch to get to, and I could never touch type them. Now I can.

My next plan is to add another row across the top for macros, and a few more columns in the center to separate my hands even more. The end result will be a keyboard that's almost as large as a standard one, but with no useless crap hanging off the right side :)

I'm not a 60%er. I do use a small keyboard though, just not that small, though I could easily get by with a 60%.

Things I care about:

    - layout
    - mechanical switches
    - size (for travel -- it must fit in my backpack)
    - reliability
    - wired
    - N-key rollover

I use Cherry MX browns -- I might prefer blues, but browns don't annoy other people in the room like blues do.

I always travel with a keyboard. Putting a laptop on your lap means looking down and straining your neck. Putting a laptop on a table means holding your arms up to type, which.. puts a strain on your shoulders and neck. The only solution is to put the laptop on a table (or higher) and attach a keyboard which one can then rest on one's lap. Yes, I even put my keyboard on my lap when using a desktop.

So, if I must carry a keyboard when I carry a laptop, the keyboard then must be small.

I think one of the goals of having fewer keys is to minimize hand movement. This should translate to faster typing, and not having to look down from the screen to the keyboard to find a key.

Although I agree that both more and less keys have benefits.

This.

I find that relegating extra keys to function layers under the home row is helpful for maintaining flow when typing. Not having to move my hands around is an advantage IMO.

I have used a Dvorak-layout 42-key Atreus as a daily driver for two years now.

I think this video explains the idea pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGXZ1ReU54

Now the Pain27 has obviously gone too far (by design).

I really believe the term "open source" should be avoided if the project is not under an real open source licence: https://opensource.org/osd

E.g. this uses a "Creative Commons BY-NC-ND" license which contains: "NoDerivatives — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material". So it restricts some rights that one would usually expect from an "open source" project, which can be confusing (https://opensource.org/faq#avoid-unapproved-licenses)

Cool project otherwise!

> an easily usable, yet ... utterly unusable

I love it.

Why?

Indeed.

Given that they ended up using a rectangular footprint, why not at least include some modifier keys.

>"The pain27 is an open source keyboard project to make an easily usable, yet completely and utterly unusable qwerty keyboard with all the letters of the english alphabet, a spacebar, and nothing else"

Yeah, but I mean.... to quote...something or other

"Just because you can doesn't mean you should".

However... something something contrapositive, "Just because you shouldn't doesn't mean you can't"

Why play board games, take your car to track days, or go for long walks in the sun?

What you're arguing is that people should spend their free time doing things they enjoy.

I mean, sure, whatever, but this feels more like going to a track day and then putting a donut spare on one corner.

Some people do like to drive old bangers.

You're being highly judgemental about something that doesn't affect you in the slightest. Plus I'm sure you have plenty of interests that many of us would be like "what's the point?"

I think this follows the axiom, 'If you have to ask...'

Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they never stopped to think if they should.

As a keyboard enthusiast, when I’m not huffing solder or lubricating plastics or waiting for my IMSTO caps, I spend the rest of my time on typing test websites like 10fastfingers or TypeRacer. The Pain27 is optimized for that experience.

Don't those usually contain periods and commas at least?

Not 10 fast fingers, typeracer does however

Because if you want a nice functional keyboard you can just buy one.

Making this deliberately useless keyboard prevents it from ever being a primarily functional item. This allows you to treat the project entirely as a creative endeavor, and not end up falling down rabbit holes that might otherwise prevent you from completing or enjoying it.

> This allows you to treat the project entirely as a creative endeavor, and not end up falling down rabbit holes that might otherwise prevent you from completing or enjoying it.

Watch me!

A hacker never needs to ask "why?"

Asking yourself questions is part of being curious. If you can't figure it out, expressing your lack of knowledge takes courage.

I agree, if it's genuine curiosity and not someone just being dismissive, as it often is on the internet.

We can assume the most positive meaning of the expressed text.

A keyboard with only letters, numbers, and space only has its uses. You can still fill out forms. Some kiosks have keyboards like that.

They don't really say what causes the pain part, which seems a major oversight. I assume it's nothing but sheer tiny size?

Maybe you could tap at it with some kind of pointed thimble on the finger.

I like the JD45/JD40 which I use daily, this is annoying

Do “open” keyboard designs for more traditional keyboards exist?

Why do all keyboard projects use staggered keys? This is asymmetric, more complicated, and less ergonomic.

The space bar where both thumbs perform the same action is also ridiculous.

There's a ton of keyboards that have ortholinear or ergonomic layouts. Some people just like the aesthetics of staggered keys over the alternatives.

I'm pretty sure these people aren't aware that ortholinear keyboards exist, or know that they're a better design.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com