Hacker News Reader

Comment by Cacti | Hacker News Reader

The quality at Apple, in both software and hardware, has obviously declined in the past couple years as their supply chain has come under strain.

In the past three years:

my MacBook has had replaced

- The screen

- The battery

- The keyboard

My iPad had it's screen replaced, and my iPhone had its battery replaced.

None of these are covered under AppleCare, they've all been replaced under individual recall programs.

Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine, but for what is supposed to be the most dependable consumer hardware on the market, it's rather surprising.

View on HN

in the past couple years

Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones.

The least reliable Mac I've ever had was a 17" PowerBook. I got more than my money's worth out of AppleCare with that one.

Ordinarily, I'd go off about cheap Chinese build quality, but the Chinese will build to any spec and quality you are willing to pay for. Also, according to Coconut Identity, the machine was built in Ireland.

> Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones.

That's because they're not old enough yet to develop problems. Reliability can only be determined after some time has passed.

2016 MacBook Pro

2015 iMac

2014 MacBook

2011 MacBook Air

2009 MacBook

2005 iBook

2005 PowerBook

Plus an iLamp I can't properly estimate the year on. All chugging along. Let me know when to expect my MTBF.

> Let me know when to expect my MTBF.

That's not how it works. MTBF is a statistical thing it doesn't say anything about a particular device. Just like smoking can give you lungcancer and your 95 year old uncle smoking 3 packs a day is not evidence to the contrary.

What is an iLamp?

I am guessing the G4 iMac w/ articulating display?

Imac G4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G4

iMac G4 maybe?

A little overzealous with the downvotes? I also didn't know what an iLamp is.

Obviously since you’ve had no problem everyone else is wrong. Maybe you’ll be on Apple’s next billboard campaign with Jeremiah Cohick.

The least reliable, worst Mac I’ve ever owned is the cylindrical Mac Pro.

Cost 6k and made in the USA.

I hate it with the intensity of a thousand suns. It is absolute trash (and we bought two :( Even worse than the v1 MacBook Air I stupidly bought.

The best Mac I owned was some old iMac 24” that lasted something like 7 years. We kept passing it down the family until the screen resolution wasn’t good enough anymore.

Wow, my 2013 Pro is the only Mac ive owned that’s never had a problem, and it runs 24/7. Mine was the $3000 model - issues with the different GPU perchance?

(I’m sure it will break the second I get home now that I said this)

The v1 Air was terrible, the hinges crumbled before your eyes and the battery warped so much it affected the keyboard.

The newest Macbooks are more reliable than older models according to data Apple Insider got from Apple stores [1].

[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-...

Which is weird, since this kind of nuts-and-bolts stuff was supposed to be Tim Cook’s wheelhouse. The whole argument for him becoming CEO was that he might not have Steve Jobs’ product genius, but you could at least be sure the trains would run on time.

What happened?

He started measuring success in dollars saved and stock price increased, instead of customer satisfaction and tech cool.

Mr. Jobs famously said that Apple will do it's own thing, and the stock holders can come along for the ride, or get out. Mr. Cook's attitude seems to be more akin to a traditional industrial-era CEO, and not someone trying to further technology, the way his predecessor did.

I'm not sure you're basing your statements on anything but conjecture, but Cook has repeatedly stated the opposite:

https://www.fastcompany.com/40525409/why-apple-is-the-worlds...

The best train conductor knows best how to get a train somewhere at a specific time. If said conductor wanted to save some money on keyboards at the expense of quality because he thought it was in Apple's best interest, I wouldn't be shocked. Just because you understand Ops doesn't mean that you necessarily want to produce the highest quality at the expense of all other things.

And Apple has never been closer to being worth $1 trillion in market value.

My 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once, and a few (screen, keyboard and top of main body) replaced twice, fortunately all during the 3-year AppleCare.

A consistent problem in my 2010, 2012 and 2017 MBP's is reliable (i.e. not crashing) switching between the discrete and integrated GPU's. It was the death of the '10 after 2 logic boards, caused 1 logic board replacement on '12, and now on my '17 I still see regular (every couple weeks) spiral-into-non-responsiveness and core dumps exactly when those switches happen. I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU, I'd rather have slow graphics than give up battery life.

I didn't have this problem on the 2012 model but i definitely do now on the 2016 one.

> 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once

Same here. First the display ghosting issue, then a couple logic board swaps for GPU issues. Then the I/O board for USB issues. The top case for a trackpad problem, and then when I swapped the battery they had to replace the bottom case as well. By the end I think it was all new parts aside from the SSD.

> I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU

I use the free gfxCardStatus app to accomplish this

You never owned a G3 iBook or the original polycarbonite MacBook.

The previous generation aluminum MacBook Pro and AirBook tanks are the anomaly - not the other way around.

You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes.

The problem here is that it is an awful keyboard design that should’ve been discovered before they shipped it. But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.

> You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes.

But you can:

> But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.

Without reliable available statistics the only thing left for consumers are anecdotes.

Even if they are the only thing left, it doesn't mean you should have a high level of confidence in the conclusions you make based off of them. (In fact, you almost certainly shouldn't...)

I've had 2 in the past 2 years. (2016 and 2017 models) First one had to have the display replaced. Both had weird display artifacts when I pushed a lot of pixels over display port-to-USB C (2 external monitors)

My previous machine, a late 2013 model, lasted 3 years or so without any real issues.

Obviously mine is a meaningless anecdote as well, but fitting a common pattern.

What is the common pattern?

That recent macbooks are shit. Obviously.

Apple's hardware quality has been iffy for a very long time. The difference is that they tend to willingly replace parts that are known to fail.

This is akin to how representative democracy is a bad form of government, but better than all the others that have been tried. Consumer reports has consistently noted that Apple laptops require the least frequency of service compared to any other brand.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliabilit...

> Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine

And how much time did it cost? I suppose like me, you have a backup computer to go to?

To me, this speaks to the incredible layers of protection Apple has in making sure their hardware consumers have as good of an experience as possible, even when they have unexpected issues. I really think some people would choose Apple solely because Apple would do these repairs for free, in a way that is the least amount of hassle to the consumer. (i.e, you can have a real conversation with a real person.)

Otherwise, do people generally think that other computer manufacturers have't had issues, or that Apple is purposefully trying to have a lower quality product? Are people away of the amount of reliability testing that Apple does in house? It's easy to point an ignorant finger at them, but we're better than that. Where's the data?

If anything, the closest thing we have to data right now is what they say on their website: a small number of laptops have a malfunctioning keyboard. Is it even legal for them to say that if it really were most of them?

I switched to Linux on Lenovo because of the problems I've had from the latest MBP.

You might expect problems from a 500-euros laptop, but not that your keyboard will stop functioning correctly after 2 months on a 1799-eur laptop.

Also, I brought my laptop at the Apple store thrice, and it broke again every single time. Last time, the logic board died, along with the SSD that is soldered to it and all data on it.

Repairs might be free, but who pays for the lost time and inconvenience of not having a computer? How much should one spend so that a laptop keeps typing after a few weeks?

My MBP lasted 5 months. Then I sold it for 1000EUR and sweared I'd never give Apple another dime.

Ironically, a 300-eur laptop with a regular keyboard that I was using as a substitute has been working great for years.

Sorry you had the bad experience, but do you think this is the average experience someone has with Apple products?

I also agree that you have to put in a decent effort to get things fixed, but you have to compare Apple to what the experience is like with other companies. I've definitely had situations that were very difficult to deal with over the phone, and situations where I had to send my laptop in for weeks in order for it to get fixed. What is the current standard for non-Apple computers, as far as getting things repaired?

(FWIW, I am also considering linux on lenovo)

Judging by the constant, intense crowding at the Genius Bar in my town I would say so

No, I don't think it's the average experience.

What's your point though?

My point is that you likely have a biased view, as understandably you had an especially-bad experience, and that's the experience that's being highlighted for everyone to see.

Enough people had the same experience to allow for a class action.

Do you want me to tell someone else's experience?

This is a ridiculous take. I have a MacBook 12” that had key problems. I went to the Apple store and they wanted to charge me $570 to fix it. I got a replacement key online for $13 and did it myself. Charging $570 to fix your own mistakes is not taking great care of your customers.

I totally agree that sometimes they do ask for high fees for repairs --- you still get to talk to a person though, and I definitely know a good number of people who didn't have to pay for their mistakes. (Even things that were definitely their fault, and they didn't have accidental coverage)

And yet, now you can go get a free repair for that machine. Does that change your opinion? It should.

> If anything, the closest thing we have to data right now is what they say on their website: a small number of laptops have a malfunctioning keyboard. Is it even legal for them to say that if it really were most of them?

Is it legal to say that? It’s not a legal document so I would imagine so. I think it’s extremely misleading though. It’s clearly a defect in the keyboard itself or else Apple wouldn’t have issued a recall. It could just be that the people who haven’t been impacted have yet to get a crumb or spec of dust under a key.

My family and I have owned around 15 Macs over the last 20 years, and the 2016 MacBook Pro is by FAR the worst Apple computer I have ever owned. I can’t even think of another one that could even compete for that title.

Everyone I have spoken to who has a butterfly style MacBook (Pro) has also had problems with their keyboard.

My guess is that percentage wise when you compare the total number they have sold with the number that came in for repair it works out to a small percent, but that could also be because people live with the problem and don’t want to pay for a repair or give up their computer to Apple for a week to have it repaired.

I lived with my busted keyboard for about a year before finally bringing it in around a month ago to have it repaired.

Also keep in mind that a lot of people assume when technology is not working how they expect it to that it is something THEY are doing wrong (vs. a fault in the product or design) and they may be embarrassed to admit it or bring it in for repair.

It seems to me like if a company makes claims that aren't true, then that is sometimes illegal --- that's what I meant by that statement. I don't think it's a matter of if something is a "legal document" so much as if their claims are legally binding, but I'm also not a lawyer. (But hence why I asked).

I 100% agree that the total number they have for repair could be small for other reasons, but it's fair to say that we just don't know. I certainly know people who hate the touchpad, but not everyone I know has had issues with the butterfly style keyboard. So again, some form of data, but still inconclusive.

Also, regardless, sorry you had to go through the shitty keyboard =/. I hope whatever other computer you consider in the future is better. FWIW, I'm also debating whether the current generation of Macbooks is something I'm interested in, and I'm still not sure.

Thanks. I’m sorry too. I really hope the next generation is better.

My biggest worry is that they will “fix” the keyboard problem by extending the touchbar to the entire keyboard area and renaming it the “Touch Board”.

They _always_ say a "small number".

I am also fine with assuming we don't really have data on the issue, but "knowing friends that agree with me" isn't really a reason to think you are definitely right.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com