Keyboard Service Program for MacBook and MacBook Pro | Hacker News Reader

Keyboard Service Program for MacBook and MacBook Pro

apple.com

682 pointsminimaxir458 comments

It's illuminating how predictable Apple is in these matters. The subhead of a month-old article on one of the class-action lawsuits filed over this issue:

"Apple faulty product flowchart: Deny --> Get sued --> Admit --> Initiate repair program" [0]

The next step is for the class-action suits to wither on the vine because Apple can say it's providing relief.

[0]: https://www.techspot.com/news/74772-apple-facing-second-clas...

From Fight Club: Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

The cynicism required for that quote to work as intended doesn't really carry over to stuck keys...

I also like to point out that the quote may have ended up supporting the behavior it criticises instead of limiting it. By spreading the idea that such behavior is actually common, it may have legitimized it.

I have no evidence to support this, but I refuse to believe such behavior, especially in the explicit form alleged by Fight Club, is anything but rare. "Corporations are people" (my friend) also implies that people make all those decisions, and individual morality does play a role.

I do have personally witnessed several instances where employees have insisted on moral behavior even when it was detrimental to the bottom line.

The problem isn't doing the math, it's only doing the math based on the company's incentives.

If it were instead: multiply by the average cost to society, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one., then this is probably the best you can do (if you're a utilitarian)

On the other hand, society does have a responsibility to make sure the incentives on the company reflect what is actually important.

The average out of court settlement should reflect the cost to society.

Unfortunately, if the corporation has better lawyers, it often doesn't.

I'm sure the idea is correct, but I find it weird that it kind of implies that every single person who's unit is defective will sue; I'm sure it's not 5%

Then repair with the same substandard part that ends up failing again later. e.g. 2011 Macbook Pro with the GPU problem.

I've got such a 2011 Macbook Pro, and it had a logic board replacement to fix the GPU problem in late 2014 and now that logic board has failed with the same problem.

Mine failed 4 times. Otherwise perfectly good computer, even faster than my 2017 model with the same specs, now sitting on my shelf useless

The program only covers "4 years after the first retail sale of the unit." All Apple has to do is kick the can down the road until then.

Oh hell. I've had the GPU replacement a couple of years back on my MBP Late-2011. That machine might be the Ship of Theseus by now, but it still holds up.

Here's me not looking forward to another failure.

My 2011 MacBook Pro failed with a dead GPU in the store as they were returning it to me with a brand new logic board. The level of QA on that batch of GPUs was astoundingly bad.

Same here, apple replacing the logicboard with another one having the same design flaw of course did not _fix_ the problem.

me too. And after the first "repair", it started running really hot.

Except the didn’t (and usually don’t) actually deny - they just don’t say anything publicly until they have a plan

You may prefer this earlier prediction of events, then: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-faces-class-actio...

We are now around step 15b.

"geniuses" are instructed in every case (holding it wrong, battery expanding, gpu defects, bending touch IC, etc) to lie to customers, and never mention recalls.

To be fair, that is pretty much all retail though. Never admit liability unless forced to do so, and then you better have permission and explicit instructions as to how from higher-ups lest there be a "reckoning."

Even if they’re trained to do this, they definitely don’t do it universally. The last time I brought mine in for keyboard problems, the genius pointed out that there were four other people there with the same problem at that exact moment, and then mentioned that with the rate they see them, it seemed like a pretty significant design flaw.

Support that claim, please.

I'm not very fond of Apple products and generally avoid them, but this is definitely a benefit of going with product from such a visible company sold in such large numbers.

When things go wrong, EVERYONE knows, and they can't just hide it. They have to do something about it. This is in stark contrast with some Android phones, eg: Nexus/Pixel, which while popular, and will make the news when something goes sour, don't generate enough noise for Google to really do anything about it aside token efforts.

Next in line: microscratches on the iPhone X screen.

Is the iPhone X actually more prone to scratching than other Gorilla Glass 5 phones? I've had the X for about four months, and while the screen is pretty scratched up (I refuse to use a screen protector) it doesn't look much worse than my older phones looked.

Anecdotal of course, but i've owned almost every iphone that's launched(skipped the 7 and the 3gs) and i haven't ever scratched my screen, no protectors. Exact same treatment: always a case with a lip, since the 4

My X has a couple HUGE scratches and a ton of tiny ones. I've examined friends phones and it's the same deal. My roommate still has my old 6S, not a single scratch on it and it's almost a launch day device. So nearly 3 years of service now.

It's definitely a variation from the glass they've used in the past. Even my iphone 1 didn't have any scratches...

Much much worse in my experience: iPhone X scratches easily.

That said I would add that I deliberated a lot over whether the X was worth it, and looking back now over the best part of a year I can say a resounding “yes”. I was really worried that iteration one of a new product was going to suck, but the only fault I’ve noticed is the glass scratching easily. Apart from that, I feel that Apple really nailed the iPhone X, one of their all-time best designs.

It’s not the glass material, it’s one of the coatings, probably the oleophobic one, that is showing micro scratches, and it’s a lot worse and the launchday devices

This seems very surprising to me. I'm running a ~$200 Moto G4 for a year and a half now and it has no visible scratches. I don't use either a case or a screen protector and I never have for any of my phones. In fact it looks basically exactly the same as the day I bought it. Sounds like a glass screen just is not worth it for me, no matter the number of apes.

Weird. My X is scratch free with no protector. Never even heard of this issue.

It's more prone than my Pixel 2. I have both an iPhone X and a Pixel 2 in the same brand and style of case. They both only go in my left pocket, which only holds my phones (keys go in the right). I got them both at roughly the same time, but the Pixel 2 looks brand new (once I wipe the fingerprints and case-edge dust off) and the iPhone X has quite a few scratches near the bottom edge.

I don't have an X, but my 8 Plus (which I'm assuming uses the same glass and coatings) is, at only nine months old, scratched worse than any iPhone I've owned yet (this is my fourth iPhone; I upgrade about every two years).

I don't know that I'd really call them "microscratches", either-- they're pretty prominent, and one runs fairly deep.

Anecdotal, but I’ve never had micro scratches in my other screens shortly after purchase, but have on the iPhone X within a week or two. And I’ve owned at minimum two of every previous generation and haven’t had issues on an 8 or 8+ screen either (yes, I own over 50 iOS devices).

"pretty scratched up"?? I don't use screen protectors and my Pixel2 screen look brand new other than fingerprints.

Do you keep the phone in the same pocket as your keys? I make sure to keep them separate.

Facing the same problem with iPad Pro 2017. Thought it was just built-in obsolescence, because I had previous iPad 3 for 5 Years with no issues.

Same glass is on iPhone 8 too(

> I refuse to use a screen protector

Why? At least use a glass screen protector if it's the feel.

Yeah, sorry, all of us iPhone 6+ owners with broken NAND BGAs are in line ahead of you.

Having owned the 3GS, 4, 6+, 7+, and now X the only one that ever had scratches on its screen was the 6+, and that was just one small scratch that was only visible in the reflection at certain angles. The X has held up great so far.

I was surprised to read this comment, because I was just recently feeling pleased about how pristine my iPhone X still looks after 7 months. I carry it in my jeans pocket, sans case, all the time.

Examining the phone very closely under a bright light, I was able to find a handful of tiny scratches on the iPhone X display. I cannot see them in normal use at all; the phone basically still looks brand new.

In comparison, my previous phone was a jet black iPhone 7 Plus, and the display got three very visible scratches in one year of use. The back, of course, was full of micro scratches, but that was expected.

It’s a tradeoff between being breakable and scratching more easily. I don’t think that’s a flaw, that’s a design decision.

The 8 Plus also scratches much easier than earlier iPhones

Sometime computer technician here. I've replaced a few keyboards on some of the earlier affected models. This is tedious, time-consuming repair with a lot of small screws.

Here's a photo of the screws with a grain of uncooked rice for scale: https://imgur.com/gallery/En32MFP (image safe for work)

For most of my repairs, it worked out more cost-effective to purchase a new MacBook top with keyboard attached, and just transfer the logic board, than spend time unscrewing, fitting the keyboard and refitting the masses of tiny screws.

On labour/consultancy alone, I suspect this will be an expensive per-case recall.

Among my many hats, I do some official Apple work.

What you are talking about is not allowed for work done under Apple.

The top case is one part which cannot be disassembled so far as they are concerned. It contains the main part of the shell, the keyboard, the trackpad, and the battery. A failure in any part of it is to be serviced by a complete replacement of the top case.

It is not an exceptionally expensive component, but it is a significant amount of labor. The top case is pretty much the "base" that all other components are attached to. Which means you take everything else out (logic board, display, fans, vent, etc) and move it to the new one.

Also, the touch ID bit is a bitch to move.

Maybe something like this will finally force Apple to start making their laptops more serviceable.

After being an Apple user since 2006, I’ve just switched to a Thinkpad for my home machine. Compared to a MacBook Air, the X series is only 1mm thicker, but smaller in all other dimensions, including weight. Yet I can upgrade the storage and memory, and replace parts myself that fail (the battery can be swapped while it’s running). It also has a full array of ports including USB type A & C, HDMI, headphone jack, SD card slot (the latest version has replaced the Ethernet port with a dongle).

Admitidely they don’t look as nice, but I’m not really a design sensitive person.

How is the trackpad? I intentionally bought a MacBook Pro late 2015 version just before they went out of stock because I actually like all those “old” ports, the old keyboard and so on.

I’d prefer to stay on os/x because Linux is still tedious in the way that you have to configure it to make it tolerable and windows had gone from great (7) to something that annoys me on a daily basis (10).

But I’m mainly scared of the mouse. The MacBook trackpad is damn near magical and I’m not sure I could ever use a laptop with a trackpad that didn’t come close to it. The price point and the design choices on the MacBook line as well as it’s price point (price can be mitigated by buying older versions like I did) have made me consider other options, thinkpads being the main competitor. But how is the trackpad?

Yep I’ve got a 2013 MBP I’m too scared to upgrade at the moment. I’ve been weening myself off it and into a Windows 10 desktop recently this solving both problems.

Plus the desktop is second hand enterprise stuff and cost virtually nothing which was a pleasant surprise.

> Maybe something like this will finally force Apple to start making their laptops more serviceable.

I am afraid they will just increase the already huge margins, to account for similar cases in the future.

Off-topic, but what is the point of having a mini ethernet port if you still need a dongle anyway? USB ethernet adapters are cheap. They could just kill the port and save some pennies.

Apple can also just swap out the complete part and then ship the broken one to China to be disassembled and repaired cheaply.

Afaik this is what they do. Apple service centers need to return broken parts to Apple after 'repair'. Apple can then recycle/refurbish these parts of they seem fit. But they probably won't discount the customer for the benefit they receive from this approach.

> image safe for work

Is there any reason to expect an image of some screws and a grain of rice not to be safe for work? Genuinely curious. Like, what else would possibly be in that image? I think in general we expect all images on HN to be safe for work. And if they are not then people warn about that. Were there any NSFW images that you came across when searching for this one?

imgur.com hosts quite a few NSFW images. A company's firewall might be blocking images coming from there.

^^ This. I've had two instances where I'd used Imgur for image grabbing of screenshots and they turned out to be on the same page as NSFW images, which was out of my control.

That photo I took with the screws was ~3 years ago, my image hosting has changed since.

You get the sweats easily, I usually undress completely while unscrewing MacBook keyboards. It's a dirty business.

For any MacBook (Air/Pro) since they've been "unibody" (introduced in 2008), Apple's keyboard repair is (almost?) always a whole new "top case". More is moved than just the logic board — display, speakers, storage — but the keyboard itself isn't removed at the shop or repair depot. Now presumably they use all those bad top cases as refurb parts to some degree, so someone removes the keyboard . . .

For the older scissor keys, you can get replacement keycaps from ebay, and install them with a bit of fidgeting yourself. So even if Apple doesn't replace individual keys, you can do it yourself, and fix a broken keyboard for around 15€.

With the new butterfly keys that is apparently no longer possible.

Apple and Apple service providers can get replacement keycaps from Apple and replace keycaps, even for the butterfly keyboards. The linked article even says, "The type of service [...] may involve the replacement of one or more keys". The butterfly ones are more complicated to replace.

But this only helps with some kinds of key issues where the keycap or scissor mechanism is the problem, like sticking or rubbing keys (and dirty keys). It usually doesn't help with issues like no key response or wrong letter being typed. In this case the keyboard, and therefore the top case, would need to be replaced.

What's a source of MacBook tops?

Why do you transfer the logic board? Do you need to obtain a new logic board (as part of the "top", and trash the original machine's logic board? )

As I recall (no pun intended) from past recalls, a logic board change is $300 itself (but that includes some redundancy if you are already doing a service call to change another part of the device)

On the new MacBook Pros, and probably the MacBooks too, the chips that make up the SSD are soldered onto the logic board. The logic board change swap is required for the customer to keep their data.

The SSD is part of the motherboard for MBPs with Touch Bar, both 15- and 13-inch, and MacBooks. The 13-inch without the Touch Bar, internally a very different design, does still have a separate SSD.

I'd assume "transfer the logic board" means that the user's original board moves to the new case. Sort of like how a head transplant is equivalent to a body transplant.

Correct.

This is the general trend in Apple in making almost everything difficult to service directly to make case more easily manufactured lighter. Course when something goes wrong...

Now the keyboards are riveted on from what I understand making it even more difficult.

I've been putting off buying a new laptop over concerns about the keyboard and overall fragileness. I was debating ditching Mac for the first time in like 15years. This makes me more likely to choose Mac since they are admitting it's a problem and they'll fix it out of warranty without question.

My big concern was getting the extended warranty and then having it break just outside the warranty period leaving me stuck with a big repair bill.

Personally I still think they should make a 32Gig Memory MacBook Pro, that's built like a tank, maybe it weighs 5+ pounds, who cares, people who want a light fragile comp can just get the non-Pro model.

edit: updated "4 pounds" to "5+ pounds" since apparently it's already 4.5 pounds

There's a non-zero chance that starting this program now means the next release of the MacBook and MacBook Pro lines is going to have another keyboard redesign. I don't mean that to sound conspiratorial, but this is an admission of a problem that's attracted a lot of attention over the last ~12 months that they've been conspicuously silent on, and this makes me suspect that they at least think they've gotten the bugs worked out. (Said bugs are apparently dust mites.)

I'd like to see at least one MacBook Pro model that at least threw the SD slot and HDMI port back in. And, sure, USB-A, but I suspect that ship has sailed no matter how much of a mess USB-C objectively is. Of course, I'd like to just see the MBP models all switch to the Magic Keyboard design even though it will -- gasp! -- make the machine a millimeter thicker...

It would be very un-Apple-like to backtrack on USB (much as I'd like them to), but reintroducing HDMI and SD wouldn't be a backtrack.

The difference is that one could reasonably assert that the industry will eventually migrate away from USB-A (even if the timeframe for that is highly debatable). But there is no case at all to be made for moving away from HDMI or SD – the idea of using USB-C ports instead of HDMI on TVs and projectors is only in its earliest proposals, and there is nothing on the camera industry's horizon to replace SD cards with any kind of USB-C compatible media.

USB-A may be superseded (if only technically) by USB-C, but HDMI and SD have no current successor.

Why cant USB-C be a successor for HDMI?

To the designers at Apple any sort of hole is like a disease that needs to be fix.

Only, not. There are still four USB-C ports in the 15" Pro.

I like USB-C. It's cut down on the number of things I plug in and out of the computer by half.

I personally think this issue is overblown in terms of frequency in the internet outrage echo chamber. So so many of these devices among the people I work with professionally, not a single failure out of anyone I’ve ever met. Yet, reading Apple posts online, you would think every MacBook Pro sold has a failing keyboard.

This issue is not overblown. I've used nothing but Macs since 2001, and am now at the third company I've worked at that maintains a substantial fleet of Macbooks. This most recent keyboard debacle is the worst thing that ever happened to the Macbook platform.

Literally every single MBP in our office has failed, some of them more than once. The failure mode is always the same: the keyboard gets flaky, then you lose a key for a couple hours until you manage to finagle it back into working, then you lose 1-2 more keys and they never work properly again. The only fix is to turn it over to Apple for several days, which means you can't count on a single MBP per employee, because at any given moment --- with near certainty --- someone's laptop will be taken out for several days.

On the plus side, it's a little bit like Chaos Monkey for backups, since you always know you're probably just a day or two away from needing to swap machines.

It sounds like a minor thing, I get it! "Sticking keys, oh no!" The problem is: you can't type. The only way to be typing again on your machine is to have it sent away for several days. That's a disaster.

All the modifier keys on the left side of my MBP 2017 are starting to get flaky. I have to press them longer and harder to get them to register and they often register a key up while they key is still down. I’m dreading finding a service center and being without a machine for who knows how long while I’m doing the digital nomad thing.

Between this and the mostly useless touch bar I’d gladly take a MBP 2015 design with an updated CPU any day. I get that Apple likes to take chances on new ideas and that often pays off spectacularly for them but not this time.

I wonder if it could be prone to happenening to laptops ordered from a particular manufacturing center, or from a certain timeframe?

I work at a 300+ person company full of 2016/2017 macbooks and personally own a 2017 macbook pro, and I've not witnessed a single problem from that sample size.

Pedantic note: No matter the failure rate, the expected number of required laptops will always be greater than the number of employees who need one.

The important question, given N employees, is: "How large can N get before we need N+2 MBPs to reliably keep everyone computing?"

> Literally every single MBP in our office has failed

I respect you and your posts generally, but I can guarantee that’s a hyperbolic statement if sample size is greater than maybe a small handful.

You could just give them real keyboards to use. Except macbooks don't have any usable ports these days...

Apple unofficially / officially said the failure rate was less then 5%. There was later some investigative work by a few Apple media that repair at Apple Retail and third party to confirm that figure. Failure ( Or Repair Rate ) or roughly 3 - 4%.

You see, that is the problem. I expect Keyboard failure to be LESS then 0.03% - 0.04%. Thanks to Apple, people finally realise how important the keyboard is, especially in these days and age, where Mac / PC are more for professional and business / work usage. 4% Repair meant 4 in every 100 Mac, even 0.04% is 4 in every 10,000. For Keyboard!

For every IBM / Lenovo, Dell, HP single Keyboard failure I have seen in the past decade of my professional career, there is like 10 MacBook Keyboard failed in the past 2-3 years. It doesn't mean other brand don't fail, but they are much less often, 5 times cheaper to repair, and many had three year warranty included. While All Mac only comes with a single year warranty.

I wish Apple bump the price by a small percentage, and include at least 2 years warranty, or even Apple Care by default. ( I know in EU this is included already ) We don't upgrade our Mac every 2 - 3 years any more. They have much longer life time. This will hopefully force Apple to think about design that is easier to repair for themselves, and much higher reliability so they do less repair.

It’s included in New Zealand too, due to the consumer guarantees act, a fantastic piece of legislation. Possibly summarising to the point of error “a purchase should last as long as a reasonable person would expect”.

> While All Mac only comes with a single year warranty. > I wish Apple bump the price by a small percentage, and include at least 2 years warranty, or even Apple Care by default.

Unlikely to happen. People seem to love shelling out extra for AppleCare+ just like how they love to tip. They think they're getting a lot of extra bonus value because of it but really it's just like most extended warranties only this time it's for an expesive product that's not expected to last (in relation to its price).

So based on your second hand observations?

Not overblown at all. I sold my MacBook Pro and stopped using Macs all together after my third trip in two months to the "genius" bar due to sticking keys.

I think a few hours of wasted time for something so basic and fundamental as being able use your keyboard more than justifies some "outrage."

One of the keys on my MacBook Air keyboard broke about 6 months ago. The busted key made it unusable as a laptop, and I don't need/want a desktop (aka attach it to a keyboard & monitor). Authorized Apple repairs were a few hudred bucks. I was strongly considering buying another Mac, but that seemed like such a waste over a single busted key. I decided to try one of those aftermarket key repair kits, and it actually worked. I spent less than $20 to fix it. I'm glad I tried! If I hadn't been able to fix it, I would have been super vocal about how I had to trash my laptop over a busted key on a keyboard, so I can understand why people who sound upset.

I’m in the same boat. Despite owning 10+ of the affected models directly and working in firms with thousands of affected models, i’ve never heard / seen the problem first hand. I didn’t doubt it’s happening, but wondered how my network has been so lucky. Glad to see Apple acknowledge it, just hope it doesn’t mean a worse keyboard is on the horizon, as I really love the current style.

I have personally had my keyboard fixed 4 times and across my company it's been nearly a dozen. It's a huge pain to have to be out of computer for that repair time and deal with it in the first place. It's a huge problem.

It's anecdotal but everyone I work with who has a new mbp has had at least one keyboard failure...

I don't know if adding another post will convince you. But for what it's worth, I'm also a long time Mac user, and this new MacBook has had multiple keyboard failures, just as tptacek describes. I've had about 5 different keys fail on me, each time for a few days, until a didn't key takes their place.

The failure rate may be low, but anecdotally it's significantly higher than previous models.

It seems very much like a usage issue. My friends that take their macbooks to the coffee shop, traveling, use it on the train, etc. all have had keyboard issues.

I work from home with an external keyboard and monitor and honestly might as well have a desktop for all the MBP leaves my room (and ancedatally) others with a similar usage pattern aren't having the issues.

So people who actually use the keyboard tend to have more issues with said keyboard. Shocking.

While this is incredibly anecdotal (e.g., a sample of one), I use my "MacBook Escape" (the non-touchbar 13") at home and in coffee shops and have not had a problem. I've also had two touchbar MBPs at two different jobs and so far have had no issues, although they tend to remain closed except for meetings.

Yeah, this is what it has been in our experience as well. They seem to fail pretty predictably after a lot of heavy usage, but many laptops don't reach that.

Right, the people that are using their notebook keyboards end up with issues and those that don't...don't

> Personally I still think they should make a 32Gig Memory MacBook Pro

I agree with this sentiment. The last upgrade I got at work was very lackluster - I went from a 4-year-old MacBook Pro to a brand new one. I still have the same amount of RAM, and the work I do isn't usually processor constrained. It's functionally no different from what it replaced.

I do like the TouchBar and Touch ID though.

They'll almost certainly do it once intel gets it's act together and ships CNL

What do you like about the TouchBar?

Honestly, I’m still not fully over the “new/shiny” phase, so I think that’s the main reason I like it right now.

I can see some useful things about it. Deleting messages in Mail.app is a tap on the TouchBar vs Cmd-Delete, which is a bit of a wash. Switching months in Calendar.app is quicker and easier with the TouchBar. Access to the formatting options in Word and Outlook is nice.

On the downside though, I spend a lot of time (at work) with the computer plugged into two monitors and a USB keyboard. In this situation, the TouchBar is basically useless so that really limits how much it will get integrated into regular use.

> This makes me more likely to choose Mac since they are admitting it's a problem and they'll fix it out of warranty without question.

Only within 4 years after sale. If I spend more than $2000 on a laptop, I expect it to last 7 years minimum.

For what it’s worth, my 15” MacBook Pro touchbar has had bad keyboard problems, and Apple Genius Bar has been very helpful in resolving, aside from the annoyance of my having made 3 trips to the Apple store for keyboard issues. At my last visit, Apple decided to replace my top case for free to fix the keyboard (which they should have done from the start, but whatev) AND the genius decided to go ahead and have them replace my display because it was marred up pretty bad. All out of warranty and all for free. Prior to this last visit, I (like you) was thinking “no way am I spending $2400 on another Apple laptop” if the quality isn’t there, without a beefier warranty. Gladly, Apple stepped up. Everything else about the laptop is excellent, I even like the new keyboard feel, but a Pro computer must be a workhorse and stand up to vigorous typing 6+ hrs a day. I know other people have been burned where maybe I was fortunate, but at least my experience has been relatively rosy. (I’ll be honest though, The touch bar is dumb and Apple should have given it more thought and functionality before rolling it out. I would do without it if it didn’t otherwise require me to buy a nerfed laptop)

Many would agree with you, but Steve Jobs was always committed to putting OK functionality that fits inside the best form. Maybe one day Apple will change to allow best functionality in an OK form (where "OK" was "insanely great just 10 years ago. ) It's likely be >4lb though: today's 15" MBP is 4.5lbs.

I do iOS development and using XCode with Macs with 8G Ram is so slow it's borderline unusable.

It just feels like 16G Ram (the max for mac laptops) is going to be too slow in a couple years or so.

That was what I was wondering about when I bought my Macbook Pro in 2015 - but I'm still using it. I have to run 2 VMs plus Xcode before the RAM becomes a noticeable problem, and even then it's perfectly usable in practice. (Switching between VMs is not instant, but the very fast SSD means I'm not waiting for too long.) I think a quad core CPU would be a much more useful upgrade than more RAM.

And come to think of it, it was also what I was wondering when I bought my desktop PC in 2012, and I'm still using that, too.

I'm not saying it's unreasonable or foolish to be concerned - far from it, given that the RAM can't be upgraded - but I still do wonder when the tipping point for this will actually be reached in practice. During my formative years, you were doing well to get 3 years out of a PC, and now here I am with a laptop that's that old, figuring it will last at least a couple more years...

It almost sounds as if you'd be more productive if you spent the time and effort to set up a Hackintosh with 32GB+ of RAM?

They will have a new machine for you to buy in 2 years time where the SSD doubles up as RAM and VRAM meaning you will have a gigabyte of RAM. Furthermore, since they will have an ARM chip in them by then you will be glad to see the back of your x86 legacy machine.

I'd be okay with a larger/heavier machine. The last gen retina display is IMO the best combination of size and power. Given they've been able to cram more performance into the thinner current gen, I imagine getting 32gb and adequate battery life in a slightly thicker form factor is doable.

No, it's 4.02 pounds. This isn't hard to look up.

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP756?locale=en_US

I feel like you could easily get something like that in the form factor of the 3rd generation (pre-touch bar) MacBook Pro, which was under 5 pounds.

The quality at Apple, in both software and hardware, has obviously declined in the past couple years as their supply chain has come under strain.

In the past three years:

my MacBook has had replaced

- The screen

- The battery

- The keyboard

My iPad had it's screen replaced, and my iPhone had its battery replaced.

None of these are covered under AppleCare, they've all been replaced under individual recall programs.

Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine, but for what is supposed to be the most dependable consumer hardware on the market, it's rather surprising.

in the past couple years

Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones.

The least reliable Mac I've ever had was a 17" PowerBook. I got more than my money's worth out of AppleCare with that one.

Ordinarily, I'd go off about cheap Chinese build quality, but the Chinese will build to any spec and quality you are willing to pay for. Also, according to Coconut Identity, the machine was built in Ireland.

> Anecdotally, the most reliable Macs I've owned have been the new ones.

That's because they're not old enough yet to develop problems. Reliability can only be determined after some time has passed.

2016 MacBook Pro

2015 iMac

2014 MacBook

2011 MacBook Air

2009 MacBook

2005 iBook

2005 PowerBook

Plus an iLamp I can't properly estimate the year on. All chugging along. Let me know when to expect my MTBF.

The least reliable, worst Mac I’ve ever owned is the cylindrical Mac Pro.

Cost 6k and made in the USA.

I hate it with the intensity of a thousand suns. It is absolute trash (and we bought two :( Even worse than the v1 MacBook Air I stupidly bought.

The best Mac I owned was some old iMac 24” that lasted something like 7 years. We kept passing it down the family until the screen resolution wasn’t good enough anymore.

Wow, my 2013 Pro is the only Mac ive owned that’s never had a problem, and it runs 24/7. Mine was the $3000 model - issues with the different GPU perchance?

(I’m sure it will break the second I get home now that I said this)

The v1 Air was terrible, the hinges crumbled before your eyes and the battery warped so much it affected the keyboard.

The newest Macbooks are more reliable than older models according to data Apple Insider got from Apple stores [1].

[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-...

Which is weird, since this kind of nuts-and-bolts stuff was supposed to be Tim Cook’s wheelhouse. The whole argument for him becoming CEO was that he might not have Steve Jobs’ product genius, but you could at least be sure the trains would run on time.

What happened?

He started measuring success in dollars saved and stock price increased, instead of customer satisfaction and tech cool.

Mr. Jobs famously said that Apple will do it's own thing, and the stock holders can come along for the ride, or get out. Mr. Cook's attitude seems to be more akin to a traditional industrial-era CEO, and not someone trying to further technology, the way his predecessor did.

The best train conductor knows best how to get a train somewhere at a specific time. If said conductor wanted to save some money on keyboards at the expense of quality because he thought it was in Apple's best interest, I wouldn't be shocked. Just because you understand Ops doesn't mean that you necessarily want to produce the highest quality at the expense of all other things.

And Apple has never been closer to being worth $1 trillion in market value.

My 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once, and a few (screen, keyboard and top of main body) replaced twice, fortunately all during the 3-year AppleCare.

A consistent problem in my 2010, 2012 and 2017 MBP's is reliable (i.e. not crashing) switching between the discrete and integrated GPU's. It was the death of the '10 after 2 logic boards, caused 1 logic board replacement on '12, and now on my '17 I still see regular (every couple weeks) spiral-into-non-responsiveness and core dumps exactly when those switches happen. I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU, I'd rather have slow graphics than give up battery life.

> 2012 MBPr had every part replaced at least once

Same here. First the display ghosting issue, then a couple logic board swaps for GPU issues. Then the I/O board for USB issues. The top case for a trackpad problem, and then when I swapped the battery they had to replace the bottom case as well. By the end I think it was all new parts aside from the SSD.

> I wish MacOS could still force to integrated GPU

I use the free gfxCardStatus app to accomplish this

I didn't have this problem on the 2012 model but i definitely do now on the 2016 one.

You never owned a G3 iBook or the original polycarbonite MacBook.

The previous generation aluminum MacBook Pro and AirBook tanks are the anomaly - not the other way around.

You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes.

The problem here is that it is an awful keyboard design that should’ve been discovered before they shipped it. But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.

> You can’t make statements about quality without having statistics. Otherwise it’s just meaningless anecdotes.

But you can:

> But I wouldn’t consider the MacBooks poor quality.

Without reliable available statistics the only thing left for consumers are anecdotes.

I've had 2 in the past 2 years. (2016 and 2017 models) First one had to have the display replaced. Both had weird display artifacts when I pushed a lot of pixels over display port-to-USB C (2 external monitors)

My previous machine, a late 2013 model, lasted 3 years or so without any real issues.

Obviously mine is a meaningless anecdote as well, but fitting a common pattern.

Apple's hardware quality has been iffy for a very long time. The difference is that they tend to willingly replace parts that are known to fail.

This is akin to how representative democracy is a bad form of government, but better than all the others that have been tried. Consumer reports has consistently noted that Apple laptops require the least frequency of service compared to any other brand.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliabilit...

> Sure, they have fixed each issue for free, so that's fine

And how much time did it cost? I suppose like me, you have a backup computer to go to?

To me, this speaks to the incredible layers of protection Apple has in making sure their hardware consumers have as good of an experience as possible, even when they have unexpected issues. I really think some people would choose Apple solely because Apple would do these repairs for free, in a way that is the least amount of hassle to the consumer. (i.e, you can have a real conversation with a real person.)

Otherwise, do people generally think that other computer manufacturers have't had issues, or that Apple is purposefully trying to have a lower quality product? Are people away of the amount of reliability testing that Apple does in house? It's easy to point an ignorant finger at them, but we're better than that. Where's the data?

If anything, the closest thing we have to data right now is what they say on their website: a small number of laptops have a malfunctioning keyboard. Is it even legal for them to say that if it really were most of them?

This is a ridiculous take. I have a MacBook 12” that had key problems. I went to the Apple store and they wanted to charge me $570 to fix it. I got a replacement key online for $13 and did it myself. Charging $570 to fix your own mistakes is not taking great care of your customers.

I totally agree that sometimes they do ask for high fees for repairs --- you still get to talk to a person though, and I definitely know a good number of people who didn't have to pay for their mistakes. (Even things that were definitely their fault, and they didn't have accidental coverage)

And yet, now you can go get a free repair for that machine. Does that change your opinion? It should.

> If anything, the closest thing we have to data right now is what they say on their website: a small number of laptops have a malfunctioning keyboard. Is it even legal for them to say that if it really were most of them?

Is it legal to say that? It’s not a legal document so I would imagine so. I think it’s extremely misleading though. It’s clearly a defect in the keyboard itself or else Apple wouldn’t have issued a recall. It could just be that the people who haven’t been impacted have yet to get a crumb or spec of dust under a key.

My family and I have owned around 15 Macs over the last 20 years, and the 2016 MacBook Pro is by FAR the worst Apple computer I have ever owned. I can’t even think of another one that could even compete for that title.

Everyone I have spoken to who has a butterfly style MacBook (Pro) has also had problems with their keyboard.

My guess is that percentage wise when you compare the total number they have sold with the number that came in for repair it works out to a small percent, but that could also be because people live with the problem and don’t want to pay for a repair or give up their computer to Apple for a week to have it repaired.

I lived with my busted keyboard for about a year before finally bringing it in around a month ago to have it repaired.

Also keep in mind that a lot of people assume when technology is not working how they expect it to that it is something THEY are doing wrong (vs. a fault in the product or design) and they may be embarrassed to admit it or bring it in for repair.

It seems to me like if a company makes claims that aren't true, then that is sometimes illegal --- that's what I meant by that statement. I don't think it's a matter of if something is a "legal document" so much as if their claims are legally binding, but I'm also not a lawyer. (But hence why I asked).

I 100% agree that the total number they have for repair could be small for other reasons, but it's fair to say that we just don't know. I certainly know people who hate the touchpad, but not everyone I know has had issues with the butterfly style keyboard. So again, some form of data, but still inconclusive.

Also, regardless, sorry you had to go through the shitty keyboard =/. I hope whatever other computer you consider in the future is better. FWIW, I'm also debating whether the current generation of Macbooks is something I'm interested in, and I'm still not sure.

I switched to Linux on Lenovo because of the problems I've had from the latest MBP.

You might expect problems from a 500-euros laptop, but not that your keyboard will stop functioning correctly after 2 months on a 1799-eur laptop.

Also, I brought my laptop at the Apple store thrice, and it broke again every single time. Last time, the logic board died, along with the SSD that is soldered to it and all data on it.

Repairs might be free, but who pays for the lost time and inconvenience of not having a computer? How much should one spend so that a laptop keeps typing after a few weeks?

My MBP lasted 5 months. Then I sold it for 1000EUR and sweared I'd never give Apple another dime.

Ironically, a 300-eur laptop with a regular keyboard that I was using as a substitute has been working great for years.

Sorry you had the bad experience, but do you think this is the average experience someone has with Apple products?

I also agree that you have to put in a decent effort to get things fixed, but you have to compare Apple to what the experience is like with other companies. I've definitely had situations that were very difficult to deal with over the phone, and situations where I had to send my laptop in for weeks in order for it to get fixed. What is the current standard for non-Apple computers, as far as getting things repaired?

(FWIW, I am also considering linux on lenovo)

They _always_ say a "small number".

I am also fine with assuming we don't really have data on the issue, but "knowing friends that agree with me" isn't really a reason to think you are definitely right.

Did they actually solve the reliability issue or is this just a (one time?) free service to get another of these error-prone keyboards?

I had my keyboard replaced by Apple a month ago, in one of the covered models. They charged full price for an entire bottom shell replacement of my laptop. The keys were better (obviously) for the first day, but after a month of use keys are already having issues (volume key is falling off). I keep my keyboard and laptop extremely clean, so it's not a matter of trapped food particles or dust or whatever.

The problem is that subtle amounts of dust are enough to stick the key mechanism.

So unless you work in a medical clean room it largely doesn’t matter how clean you keep your laptop. Two top cases later for me and I now use a keyboard cover. No problems since.

Which cover did you choose? Does it make the screen dirty? My wife had a cover on her MacBook many years ago, and the oil from the cover would imprint on the screen, leaving keyboard-shaped marks all over.

Interestingly when dealing with the logic board issue. They were replacing them with old stock until the warranty for the recall wore out.I suspect they will do the same. Replace it with the same keybaord that they have on the shelf after a year or so most people will upgrade to the new one with a brand new redesigned keyboard that's "revolutionary". After a while the recall will be over and most will be stuck with a shitty albeit brand new keyboard.

Don't count on it being actually solved. Even today, screen replacements because of the much older coating issue will eventually have the same problem again.

It seems like you'll be getting the same keyboard, but the program says nothing about limits per-computer, so if it happens again I think you just send it in again.

I have to assume this implies a redesigned keyboard is coming, though. This is going to be expensive for Apple and it would be insane to stick with a design that they are tacitly admitting here is faulty.

That’s my bet as well. It’s an engineering flaw related to the incredibly delicate mechanism, short travel, and tiny tolerances. A very small particle can jam it.

I have the new MacBook Pro and I prefer its keyboard over old style, but I swear the first time I used the down arrow about a week after purchasing it was slightly jammed with something. Still functions and doesn’t repeat characters, but infuriating.

It sucks to know that after 4 years this repair program will end and I’m stuck unjamming it myself by following this article: https://support.apple.com/en-us/ht205662

An Apple Store employee told me today that they are using slightly different parts, which are less prone to malfunction.

A lot of people say that 2017 keyboards perform better. Had no issues with mine so far and really like it.

At least the quality program is an acknowledgement of an issue (which is like getting blood from a stone when it comes to Apple), and gives you 'protection' if you have this issue outside of warranty.

I have the theory this is one factor that prevents a 2018 MacBook. They cant make the keyboard work properly.

This and the fact they can't upgrade to CoffeeLake without going to 28W TDP. Theyd have to use 2core CPUs with Iris graphics instead of the now standard 4core in the Ultrabook space, which would make the device look like a toy. And Intel cant deliver 10nm chips. It is not looking cool. Maybe they only bring out a new, slightly chunkier 15" with 32G of lpddr4 and CoffeeLake 4core which would make a lot of video and pro people very happy.

EDIT: Coffee Lake does not support lpddr4 yet. So thr macbook is stuck with 16G RAM.

But it looks like they already have: http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?docid=20180068808&SectionNum=1&...

This looks great - waterproof and dust free.

While Intel struggles to get 10nm right, Apple is tooling up to crank out 7nm CPUs. The next MacBook will be ARM-based, performance competitive with Intel, and draw less power.

I'm on the phone with Apple customer service right now. It looks like I'm going to get a refund for the $257 I paid to have my spacebar fixed in March. The rep on the line says I'm the first person she's talked to about this but she expects a lot more.

That's just crazy. $257 for a space bar fix. That's like the price of 2 quality mechanical keyboards with RGB lighting.

Having had a similar thing done, the reason for this is that Apple will not replace a single key on the keyboard once a laptop is shipped in for repair.

In some stores, techs may try to re-seat the existing key, and in very rare cases have replacement keys to utilize in-store, but usually they end up wanting to ship out for a full replacement top case.

So you are not paying for a key, you are paying for a new Apple keyboard (which sadly, will inevitably develop the same key issues as the design is not fixed.)

An Apple Store employee told me today that they are using slightly different parts, which are less prone to malfunction.

I bought another keyboard on eBay to salvage keys from for my out of warranty 2015 12” model.

It's not just 'a space bar fix'. It's a key on a highly specialized keyboard. A MBP is the same price as N Chrome books but they aren't in the same ballpark in terms of functionality.

I'm sorry, but $257 for a spacebar repair is simply absurd. To put it in perspective, $72 more would get you a base-spec iPad.

I don't know about you, but a single chiclet key and a full-fledged tablet computing device aren't in the same ballpark in terms of functionality, either.

Getting a space bar fixed isn't a "space bar fix"? Interesting.

Well, the spacebars are in pretty similar ballparks.

> I'm the first person she's talked to about this I wouldn't have much confidence in that. I've heard that from 3 apple geniuses about the iphone 6 touch disease and about the safari browser bug (i forget which ios version) - both pretty obvious and well known issues.

It's pretty frustrating. Either apple just doesnt update their employees on issues or they just dont want to admit stuff until they have to (not implying it's malicious, but it certainly seems like it)

Eligible models include:

MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, Early 2015)

I used to be a Free Software fanatic (and still prefer to use it when feasible). But Apple stands behind its products like no other computer company (see also its battery replacement program) and frankly, I've been craving a Mac lately (currently using a Dell Developer Edition and a self-built desktop, both running Ubuntu).

I think I'll save up for a Mac Pro since the RAM, graphics, and SSD (not to mention screen) are relatively easy to replace or upgrade.

If you're interested in the Mac Pro, you should wait until Apple unveil their new model. They said last year they were in the process of redesigning it.

They stand behind their products and all it took was them getting sued first.

Honestly, it's still better than nothing.

Apple is obviously in the wrong here and they had to get sued before admitting the mistake, but it's no worse than other manufacturers. At the very least, once Apple admitted it, the replacement experience is usually pleasant and takes a single appointment at an Apple Store.

Compare that with other manufacturers where you have to ship the machine to some service centre abroad at your own cost and wait god knows how long before getting it back.

With a $2000+ laptop you should really get an extended warranty, and all serious manufacturers send a technician to you.

Having to go to a physical Apple store implies that there's one nearby.

This is great news for MBP/MB owners. The lack of a 2018 release of notebooks while they properly address this is the right thing to do. I wonder how much the class action lawsuits had to do with this, but I feel happy about the outcome regardless of how we got here. Net-net though, I think Apple did lose out in the sense the faulty keyboard drove a segment of their user base to experiment with a Linux or Windows based work environment when news of keyboard reliability issues surfaced after the 2016 release. Having not used a Windows based system for years, I now have a Lenovo X1 Carbon as a backup notebook after my 2017 MBP had keyboard issues. And to be honest, it's not bad with the Windows Linux Subsystem (Ubuntu installs as an app from the app store). Losing mind share is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a brand.

I don't know about that. My wife recently needed a new Macbook Pro, and I bought her the 2015 15" model since it has regular plugs. I use Linux exclusively, but those 2015 Macbook pros are perfectly fine office machines.

I've had my topcase replaced and the problems just came back months later. Does anyone know if they have a solution to this problem or is their plan to just have me ship my machine to them every six months and avoid the class action?

I'm confused about something. I keep hearing people say that they're replacing their "topcase" to fix this. What is the topcase? I thought the "topcase" was the screen.

No, the screen is the screen. The lower part of the laptop (where everything but the screen lives) has a case made of two pieces of aluminum. The topcase, which is the top half of the aluminum body, and has the keyboard mounted very deep into it as well as the logic board and other parts. There is a smaller piece of aluminum that screws to the topcase to hold everything inside.

Close. The bottom case is just a panel, not holding anything in, so removing it just gives access to the inside. Everything is attached to the top case, but some parts, like the display hinges and motherboard, are removable at the shop, while others, like the keyboard, plus the trackpad and battery for retina MBPs and newer, are part of the top case assembly part.

(The 12-inch MacBook is different: some parts are attached to the bottom case, like, iirc, the motherboard.)

the keyboard, palmrest/keyboard surround, and batteries are all one unit. they replace the whole thing if you need a new battery too. It's been like this since 2012~

The problem is that you’re getting dust, food etc. behind the keys.

The solution is to use a keyboard cover. It also helps with noise as well.

Seriously, “You’re holding it wrong” all over again? The problem didn’t exist in the previous generation macs. Keyboardgate yet again.

Is this the “you're holding it wrong” argument?

I’m not making a argument. I hate the design more than anyone.

The problem has been acknowledged by Apple as being particles of dust, food behind the key mechanism. So the obvious solution is to cover the keys. I’ve had a cover for a while and now have had zero issues.

> The solution is to use a keyboard cover.

Not an acceptable solution.

Dust and other small particles shouldn't defeat a laptop keyboard.

Well I don’t work for Apple so can’t help you further.

It is a solution though albeit I agree not a perfect one.

This is the tech equivalent of victim blaming.

I need a new computer and I've been loving my 2011 Macbook Air until now but to be honest, with the current offering, I almost feel like buying another Air before they are killed.

It's hard to beat 12 hours of battery life, Magsafe, a super slim form factor, a soft, silent keyboard, more ports, and the lit up apple.

I just wish it had smaller bezels and a better screen but apart from that, it's looking like the more logical option to me, as strange as that might sound.

I'm fairly sure the lower resolution display of the Air helps with battery life.

Is there a reason why you are not considering PC?

I dislike these questions because they almost feel like bait.

As in, someone is going to try to refute the arguments for choosing a Mac over a PC but usually only in the shallowest of ways.

> 12h battery

"Well, the spec of a dell XPS with a 6-cell upgrade says 12 hours!"

> Thin and light

"Well, the HP Spectre is lighter!"

> MacOS is a good OS and works quite well

"Linux is good these days!"

> Magsafe

"You can buy a magNeo..." or "Well, that's not such a big issue!"

Pedantry aside, my point is that the whole package was just _slightly_ better than the alternatives. No single thing was causing the platform to be so good. The answers to these topics rarely look holistically.

And, no, I'm not a Mac fanboy- I like it enough because it has MS Office and Exchange integration along with a slew of other proprietary tools needed to work with my Microsoft heavy company, tools which do not work at all on Linux. And I cannot possibly stand Windows. (But, otherwise would prefer Linux on my precision 5520)

There are rumours of anew air this October.

I’m glad they’re admitting there’s a problem. Two of my macbooks have had keys just flat out fail in different ways.

They want to be exceptionally careful in Australia. They got fined $9M the other day for misleading consumers about repairs:

https://www.smh.com.au/technology/apple-us-fined-9-million-f...

On this particular issue at hand, Apple is relatively quite careful and has been for a number of years. If you present a device with an issue, they will service and cover it for free for at least two years. Apple's interpretation of Australian consumer law was pretty straightforward.

That’s not Australian consumer law. There is no specific timeframe. This is not the first time they have been caught out on this.

I was referring to the keyboard issue, not the error 53 issue or whatever.

For the keyboard issue, it’s a simple case of honouring ACL saying that devices should last for a reasonable period of time. Two years is the baseline automatic baseline for iOS and Mac within Apple, with discretion used past that.

I think the error 53 thing was a bit more nuanced and that was a genuine misinterpretation of the laws.

Finally, I've had to replace the keyboard on my current laptop twice and I've had it less than 18 months. It's just ridiculous, it's not designed for every day use.

As annoying as it is, I REALLY hope they don't get rid of the butterfly keyboard. It's superior in every way for typing, ease of fingers, speed, etc. The one problem is the annoyance of stuck keys sometimes but I just buy canned air and fix it the second it happens and it keeps it OK.

Uh, “superiority” is clearly in the eye of the beholder. I hate it, the super-short travel literally makes my fingers hurt. It’s like tapping on a brick. Without an external keyboard, I would have thrown away this machine after a week.

Make sure you're not talking about butterfly v1 (which was awful, like typing on a piece of wood). V2 is where it's at

Mine is the MBPR late 2016 model, which I believe is v2 (v1 being the first one-usbC macbook).

The keyboard of my 2015 Macbook is the worse for typing I had from Apple - by far - and I had a lot of Apple laptops and keyboards.

The keyboard of my 2012 Macbook Air feels like a huge upgrade.

You probably have butterfly V1, which was awful. You need to try butterfly v2

Except noise, please get rid of the noise.

troll

A good friend of mine has literally been a Mac user his entire life, for over twenty years, he's about 27...

He bought his first ThinkPad last month. And no longer uses a Mac for his main laptop.

The Second Moribundity of Apple is nigh...

I was a Thinkpad user my entire life.

I bought my first Apple laptop a year ago. I no longer use a Thinkpad as my main laptop.

Your story works both ways so what's the point you're trying to make?

Funny, I was a life long thinkpad user until white pressure spots appeared all over my year old laptop's screen.

Lenovo should be all over this with their Thinkpad marketing.

I'm not even sure they have to do anything. At my current workplace, the IT department got so many complaints that they started offering linux laptops.

Here's their first ad campaign:

Lenovo - we don't charge $257 to fix your space bar.

Lenovo is pretty terrible with parts availability. It's not uncommon for parts for an enterprise-class, in warranty laptop to be unavailable/on a long lead time.

Dell is far better with parts availability, although (much as I personally don't like them), Apple is better than either.

> Lenovo is pretty terrible with parts availability

Really? That's too bad - I had to replace the fan on my Lenovo T500 some years back (~2011) and they had sent one overnight-by-10:30 (and it was pretty inexpensive, too). It certainly made an impression.

I guess back then IBM still ran the parts and service business, even though Lenovo had taken over the manufacturing and marketing several years before.

The one time that happened to me I called them and they upgraded the required parts for me FOC under warranty and shipped them over within 48 hours.

I've read stories on /r/thinkpad of it being a bit hit and miss sometimes, but they've been very good to me for the last 10 years or so. Far better than my experiences with Apple (not dealt with Dell).

Lenovo, we send out a "technician" who sometimes breaks your laptop more than it was before. Joking aside Lenovo can be super hit or miss with their "repairs"

Would it work? Most normies would jump on thinness over ergonomy, spill resistance and a non-flawed switch mechanism.

Sounds familiar. Our repair from earlier this year. It broke twice, once within two weeks, then within about a further 2 months.

Just what you need when you've spent £lol money on a premium/flagship laptop

Issue: Keys sticking and popping Cosmetic Condition: Device is in good condition otherwise. Proposed Resolution: New TC & LCD

Display Assembly, Space Gray Top Case with Battery, ISO, Space Gray Hardware Repair Labor Total £ 890.50

Just had my MBP 15" keyboard replaced in full under warranty, similar to what's being offered here. Pluses:

- Full top sheet replacement includes the battery (it's glued to the top sheet), so you get a new battery too if Apple decide the keyboard needs full replacement (this is at their discretion, but you could insist on it if you have multiple failing keys). It's nice to see that battery cycle counter reset to zero.

- I'd forgotten that the out-of-the-box keyboard feels great to type on (if you're comfortable with the low travel and having to bottom-out your keypresses, which mechanical keyboard purists tend to hate). And it's quiet. Before the replacement a train passenger asked me if I could please type more quietly. I'm a light touch-typist but it really did sound like bacon crackling at one point. There's nothing much I could do except move carriage or put the laptop away.

- In all other respects the MBP is the best laptop I've owned, after ~20 years of Apple/Microsoft/Dell/IBM/Lenovo hardware. I considered switching away from Apple gear but now think I'll stick it out. It's hard to find comparable trackpads, screens, software, and batteries elsewhere.

Downsides:

- The service technician said there's nothing fundamentally different about the new keyboard parts. They are flawed like the old ones.

- Also said there's nothing much I can do to prevent this. I use an external keyboard about 80% of the time and still encountered issues with keycaps working loose and keys crackling and sticking; I expect I'll see it again before AppleCare and the 4-year replacement period is up.

- They recommended selling the MBP as soon as Apple offers a new model without that defect. I suspect others will do the same if something better comes out, and resale values will likely take a hit as a result.

> In all other respects the MBP is the best laptop I've owned, after ~20 years of Apple/Microsoft/Dell/IBM/Lenovo hardware. I considered switching away from Apple gear but now think I'll stick it out. It's hard to find comparable trackpads, screens, software, and batteries elsewhere.

My experience could not be more different. I’ve had two MacBooks die in the last 3 years: one from spilled water near keyboard and the other just booted with dead pixels one morning. To make matters worse, in both cases I was quote $800+ by Apple for repair.

In contrast, I have Dell laptops with 2-3x usage going back a decade that still work just fine even after fairly rough handling and numerous spills. On couple of occasions during 2000s when I did have a Dell fail, Dell either sent a replacement or sent a technician to my house to do a full repair.

I took my laptop (macbook pro 15 2017) into the store today because the 'i' and 'f' keys are now only held in place by gravity. I was surprised to hear that not only would they replace the whole keyboard but that they've resolved the issues in the replacement that I'd be receiving. Anyone know if this is true?

It’s not true. The replacement top case you get will be identical to the one you have now.

And it will continue to break. Source: two replaced top cases.

It's possible that something has changed between your last visit and today... Given that Apple announced a recall, I'd say it's highly likely that they think they have fixed it.

I am curious about this also. And since I have an appt at the Apple Store tomorrow for my busted keyboard, I will be reporting back! Hopefully they will at least have a permanent fix by the time the 4-year period is up, even if they don’t have it ready yet.

My last visit was 4 days ago.

I can confirm that the same top case part number has been used in all cases.

I have no evidence to prove it, but i think you're probably right. I went through like three motherboards during nvidia GPUgate, and i know people who went through more than one screen during the early rMBP bad screen coating thing

An Apple Store employee told me today that the replacement parts are not identical to the original parts. The hope is that they won't just be repeatedly replacing top cases, but that they'll actually be able to fix the issue for folks.

That would be great. I've now had to order new keys two times for my 2016 macbook pro. Frequently used keycaps tend to become looser and just fall out. At 13$ per replacement key time 4-5 keys from replacementlaptopkeys + shipping is not cheap.

Would be very interested to hear whether this is actually a long-term fix to the problem. I have had this issue many times with my MBP non-TB model, usually resolved by some compressed air under the keys.

Where “certain MacBook and MacBook Pro models” means every single one? Ok.

I believe the models listed includes every model with the new type of keyboard.

Since this only covers specific models from 2015-2017, I hope this means the 2018 Macbook/Macbook Pro models (whenever they are released) will have an improved keyboard design.

Or maybe it's not on the list because the comp doesn't exist yet, maybe they'll add it to the list when it comes out.

I hope that's not the case, and we'll see a brand new redesigned, reliable keyboard.

I've missed four Apple recalls (Mac, Apple TV, and two iPhones). What's the best way to keep up to date on them? Apple has never contacted me.

I'm glad to hear this. I've already been in once because of an up-arrow problem, and I'm headed back tomorrow because my space bar sticks.

Does anyone have any feedback on whether the cleaning they do in-store is as good as getting a new keyboard installed (or how long the installation takes)?

My guess is a lot of folks will be taking their MBPs in right before the four years is up to get a new keyboard going-forward.

I'm definitely going to send mine in and am hoping for basically a new replacement (has happened before in old models when they do repairs for me).

My keys not only stick and sometimes the left shift doesn't work half the time. I feel like they get dirtier somehow than the old model. And the black scratches off easier.

Late '16 15 inch retina here, my keys started getting fucking about +6 months of every day use.

My work Macbook is 6 months old, and the delete key only works if you hit it with a certain pressure at a certain place.

I'm tempted to send it in, but the problem is that I sort of need it for work.

I don't think I will send it in, since it's not my personal laptop, and I just use an external keyboard at work because the Macbook keyboard is terrible anyway.

I'm sure that I'm not the only person in this position.

As much as I love Apple hardware I am really annoyed by how wasteful their products are. I recently took my Early 2015 MBP to the Apple store because one of the rubber feet came off, I was told that the warranty doesn't cover "non-functional issues" and that I would need to pay them £100 to replace the full bottom panel.

Anyone know a reason why they do this other than greed?

Because it costs money to store and inventory small parts. It needs a sku and a price for the part, then a sku/price for the repair/replacement. How many small rubber feet should an Apple Store keep in stock for the occasional customer who comes in and loses one? Easier to just replace a whole part that contains many of the smaller attached parts.

I’m pretty sure all the MacBook feet are exactly the same, certainly the MBP line are. They could store 10000 rubber feet in a pretty reasonably sized box....

I was amazed when two of the feet on my 2014 MBP came off on the same week.

Much like the auto industry. It is all modular and they replace modules and not small individual parts.

For what it's worth, i bought a bottom panel on ebay for about $28 and swapped it myself. Small components like this are never a good deal from the OEM, regardless of brand. Same deal with cars, pick it up from the junkyard.

For reasonably generic parts like rubber feet, suitable replacements can be had for far cheaper than OEM:

https://www.amazon.com/Self-adhesive-Bumpers-Devices-Project...

I mean, it's not exactly an ultra-complex piece of kit. It's a piece of rubber with some adhesive on the back. They probably cost less than a cent each to make.

Laziness and cost reduction.

This is very good and the reason I keep coming back to Apple is that they actually do stuff like this.

I am currently on a 2012 mbpr and it has had its screen replaced by Apple (due to the keyboard scratching the screen) and the logic board replaced by Apple (due faulty soldering around the GPU).

No other consumer electronics company offers that level of service.

They are doing it because they were sued.

Yes, exactly. They even denied problem exist til very end.

The problem is that this service will mean sending in the computer because the keyboard is not easy to replace on this model. I've heard from techs they just end up replacing the whole thing.

Does anyone know if the keyboard they plan to replace it with is better? Or is it the exact same keyboard that will end up sticking again after a month?

PSA: the replacement parts that Apple is now using are not identical to the original parts that are taken out.

I learned this today from a Genius Bar employee at the Apple Store Stanford. He said that they have slightly tweaked the parts so they aren't as susceptible to jam/malfunction.

Will never forgive apple after they refused to fix my late 2011 MacBook Pro which suffered from the GPU flaw.

This is rich. Most manufacturers would not need to start a special program, you just mail your laptop back, no lawsuit needed. Lenovo will send a repair person to your home. Apple really is trash. You can't even replace a hard drive in their laptops. Fisher Price laptops.

Most manufacturers send a repair person when the product is out of warranty? I don't think so.

I stand corrected. I'm glad they finally decided to acknowledge the issue. We know the way they work. It probably took them months to do the CBA.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17312885

One of my machines (a $3000+ 2017 15") has had several keys fail. I actually use an external keyboard just so I don't have to deal with the unreliable keys. Between the frustrating touchbar and this I honestly can't recommend the current generation of MBPs...

When they say “sticky keys” do they mean let’s get stuck in depressed position or that they feel sticky, like adhesive? Because I’m feeling the latter. All jokes aside I tried wiping it to no avail. I don’t eat at the computer and always wash hands.

Stuck in depressed condition. (Much like their owners, who await an MBP with more ports and a functioning keyboard.)

lulz :D

Annoying that Apple pretended there wasn’t an issue for so long but they have a decent track record of doing right by their customer in the long run. I’ve seen this keyboard issue first hand on machines and it’s both legit and highly annoying.

At last. I've made my MBP repaired previously. Fortunately, it was still under warranty, and I did not paid anything. OTOH, I had the feeling that the same problem might occur in future. This program with 4 yrs coverage, is a must.

Apparently it's pretty difficult to make a keyboard that works correctly, because in case you're wondering whether to go for a Dell instead: they have similar key repeating issues on various (high end) laptop models.

Lenovo latest X1 keyboard has close to zero issues and perfect for most with a size comparable to mbp line.

My retina MBP developed a really sticky 'L' key. A few blasts of compressed air and a few taps it sorted it out completely. Your mileage may vary, but worth a go.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the keys on the MacBook lose their clickiness and the computer is put under load. Cooling it down the clickiness comes back.

Are they changing it in some way? Or is this just “a random subset has problems and we will repair them as they emerge but we’re not changing the design”

Hopefully the Apple store can do these repairs same day. I actually bought a magic keyboard and trackpad so I can have this issue not happen as often.

It is unlikely, the repair is pretty extensive see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMueATtTcQg

I ordered a MBP 13 without touchbar and it is shipping now. I wonder if it will be subject to this issue or if new models are already “fixed”

It’s a design flaw. It will only be fixed with new design.

touchbar - 1, legacy physical keys - 0

Love to see the feature matrix spin for this...

Keyboard repair program

- Apple: included

- PC vendors: none

Small percentage???

Yes, small. Because every person who had it complained online but there’s so much more users who are doing fine.

If the design is as flawed as it seems it is just matter of time before a much bigger percentage fails..

Thats true, since its clearly an overall design flaw, not a problem with some units. But even that they will state ‘small percentage’ to not make it clear.

But on the other hand for every repair that shows up in Apple's statistics there are others who are silently suffering because they don't want to lose their ain commputer for week (=mme), or who don't have AppleCare and don't want to pay 100s of dollars for a replaceent.

I have multiple offline friends who don't post on tech messageboards, but have had this issue. A few of them have just been putting up with it to avoid the cost. This is much more widespread than even sites like hn and reddit make it seem

Ive had it happen to 3 of my 3 machines, so i guess 'small' by some measure.

I'm pleased they're doing this, but that rubbed me the wrong way too. It is clearly a design problem with the keyboards themselves, it wasn't some manufacturing defect.

A design problem can push tolerances to the point where it fails in a small percentage of cases (environments with rougher handling, temperature, or humidity).

If the problem affected a large percentage, it likely would have been caught and fixed before release, which is cheaper than burning labor, parts, and PR in a recall.

> If the problem affected a large percentage, it likely would have been caught and fixed before release

By that logic no product would ever have a mass recall, but they do, just as this one does.

Are there any examples other big vendors eg hp or Lenovo did the same for 4 y.o. laptop ? Yeah it’s tooo late but better later then never

Apple also hasn't updated this line in quite some time. Dave2D recently did a new laptop review where he couldn't recommend any MacBooks because they're still using far older architecture than their PC equivalents like the Dell XPS 15.

Finally, at least they responded :(

ha when I try to submit a case I get

Service Unavailable - Zero size object

typed slowly as my spacebar is so sticky!!!!!!!

I have a late 2013 with the same exact keyboard problem. Apple quotes a crazy repair price. Can someone sue for us?

Honest question: as the keyboards suck anyway, why not just spend $100 and get a quality mechanical keyboard?

A large appeal of a laptop is the portability.

At least they are covering it for 4 years. But after that you're still sitting with a time bomb.

this failed on my 2014 mbp, costing me 300$ in repairs. too bad my laptop is not covered

The 2014 model has the old keyboard, and they're repairing the issue on the newer, butterfly models.

Better late than never, Apple!

A classic Friday news dump.

“Small Percentage”? Ha!

Finally

“A small percentage” ... this is so Apple

It was about timeeeeeeeeeee

I don't know why you were downvoted - this is exactly what I thought when I read it.

OH. Is there a Repair Program for High Sierra too? Repairing the keyboard only goes so far if the OS still sucks as bad as it does. </s> #sorta

I really hope Apple gets back to reliable and "Just Works" again.

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