Hacker News Reader

Comment by astrodev | Hacker News Reader

In the vast majority of cases, it doesn't matter. But I think it's ethically wrong for a company to have this power over an individual. Can't it lead to a situation where, for a few weeks, a person becomes an involuntary worker (i.e. a slave) - unless they negotiate or buy their own release?

I live in Austria, arguably the most backward-looking rich Western country, and my agreement requires me to give a four-week notice. While my employer is such that this will never become an issue, I believe that the "at-will employment" is one of the many manifestations of the "American freedom" that also give the US its competitive edge.

View on HN

I'd honestly rather run the risk of having to legally work somewhere a few weeks than the company having the power to simply dismiss me without cause. I always hesitated to simply be myself at work for fear of this sort of thing when I lived in the states. I lived in a small-to-medium sized, fairly christian towns. I'm a bisexual athiest that doesn't care what race she dates. And in general, I'm a good employee, especially for the sorts of jobs I had. Once place need actual cause to fire me, I can relax a little.

I get it, but it really cuts both ways.

Having worked at a firm with largely big-C Conservative, Christian, male heads of department and up, I've seen how my more "out-there" co-workers were treated[0]. Folks who were open about their "pagan" religions, or polyamorous ways, or even women of the same social standings who dared have a job, get pregnant and raise children were treated terribly. If it weren't for the fact that good coders and managers are hard to find, I'm sure it would have been even worse, and them having some protection would make resting easier.

Still, that lack of protection meant they could find greener pastures and leave sooner. Personally, I've had a few jobs wherein I was lied to about the position, duties and responsibilities, etc. and after finding out it was a "Take it or leave it" situation, I left.

I really wish we had a bit more leeway in terms of negotiating employment agreements, so folks could find the right balance for them. Sadly, the business world is full of cargo-cult behavior so we get bog standard take it or leave it deals.

[0] - I'm not saying this an indictment of any group, just illustrating the conflict.

See, that last bit - the lying about position, duties, etc - would be harder where I am now. Yes, I do generally have to give notice to leave a place, but everyone also has the right to a contract before they start a job. Minimally, it lists duties, positions, pay rate, and things like that. The notice time is in the contract as well - and the contracts cannot take away rights given by law (so they can't force people into arbitration instead of having a lawsuit, for example).

Granted, at least for your average low-to-mid level worker, you don't have as much negotiating power. Luckily, however, there are legal protections for regular sick time (get the flu, stay home 3 days, and you are safe to do this a few times a year) and parents have more time, since they are responsible for other little humans who get sick. (I don't have children, but fully agree with this). And there is either 4 or 5 week of vacation each year for everyone. These protections make it easier to find something that works with life.

Having a decent notice period favors the employee much more than the employer and most employers offer PYLON (pay in liew of notice) and often half a months notice period will be taken up by annual leave

And as some one living in Austria I thought you would have been acutely aware of the social status symbol of working in a professional role that has a long 3 - 6 month notice period.

What happens if you tell them you quit effective immediately and stop coming in?

Not sure about Austria, but in my home country, Poland, the employee is liable for statutory damages. He will be ordered by the court to pay the employer an amount equal to his gross salary for the notice period [1].

For example, if you earn 10,000 PLN gross (7,000 PLN net) and quit without observing a 3-month notice period, you will have to pay your employer 30,000 PLN, i.e. over four times the monthly net salary.

Of course, if the employer believes they incurred a loss due to the employee leaving without notice, they can sue for additional damages of any amount.

[1] Polish "Employment code" (Kodeks pracy), article 61, https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&...

In the UK (as I understand it) you might become liable for the costs of replacing you until the end of your notice period, probably because of "breach of contract". But the business would have to be pretty shitty to do this and probably willing to lose all of that money again in legal fees. Mostly they would probably on refuse to give you a reference.

What makes you say Australia is arguably the most backward-looking rich Western country?

They said Austria, not Australia.

Two itty bitty letters difference, thousands of miles apart.

Oh, oops, sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. Probably need more sleep.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com