Most startups are not competing for talent that would otherwise be making $400k.
Most startups are not competing for talent that would otherwise be making $400k.
From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying.
I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4.
For most SWEs, L5 would be the last level they ever reach in their entire career..
Actually my salary was very similar at Amazon when compared with Google and my friends have similar salaries. The problem with Amazon is that their vesting schedule is very heavily weighted towards the 3rd and fourth year.
It's true that if you stay the entire time, that might work to your benefit since by that time the stock value may have increased greatly, but I'm not sure how much that should count since you could in theory just sell your RSUs and buy Amazon stocks if you wanted to.
My experience is that total comp at Google is much higher than Amazon but again this may be anecdotal?
I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they never called me back). Both times, it was from an internal recruiter making first contact with me. But when I try to reach out to them first (applications or LinkedIn), nobody answers.
Are these FAANG companies usually recruiting candidates on the basis of "don't contact us, we'll decide if we want to contact you"? Other than knowing an acquaintance that works in the company I see no other way to get into an interview more quickly.
My best advice is find someone who can submit your resume as an internal referral. Those carry a lot more weight (at least where I work). However, make sure that person is someone you know and is comfortable “vouching” for you. These referrals are looked at more favorably since the thinking is that it’s somewhat of a known quantity.
Other than knowing an acquaintance that works in the company I see no other way to get into an interview more quickly. You should certainly cultivate an internal advocate. In no circumstance will that be worse than applying cold; it will often be better.
Go to Google and search "python list comprehension" in a bunch of different tabs. Make sure it's exactly that. If you have an extra 's', or if you do "list comprehension python", it's not gonna work.
If you go through the first 3 levels, then they'll ask you to send in a resume.
Admittedly, I only know results from the perspective of students, but I know several people who were initially rejected that got callbacks after finishing Foobar.
Anyway, I did that search in 20 tabs and didn't get anything.
I wouldn't worry too much about getting into them though. SE's are in high demand across the Valley; expand your horizons and interview with some of the late stage startups and other SE companies as well (e.g. Atlassian). They will provide amazing compensation as well as being a smaller company where you can have a bigger impact. Once you build a few years of experience delivering products, your problem will be rejecting 99% of the recruiters that reach out to you lol.
Seriously as a CS student, you really just have to get a job where you can learn and write actual code and watch your career soar.
If you are on a team of n<10 responsible for keeping a company/product alive you tend to learn a lot more than if you're on a team of n>1000.
Yep, say hello to startups who go cheap by outsourcing to developers who are not as good in their craft or don't care about learning more.
And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, yes even at G and FB.
Uber and Airbnb don't pay that much either. Sorry I don't count paper money as real money.
None of the companies in top tier tech can afford to pay substantially less than any of its competitors. That's why they're "top tech".
If what you said was true, and FB or Google paid a lot more than say MSFT or AMZN, then all the best senior engineers would eventually leave the latter for the former, and only the bottom talent will retain. Then the latter won't be top tech in any meaningful sense.
In reality, FAANG are grouped together because they pay about the same and can compete with each other for the same level of talent. Other companies are in this category, just not as famous.
My total compensation went up by ~80% going from MSFT to FB (but my housing costs 3x in the Bay Area vs what I had in Boston so it’s not as large an increase as it sounds).
I'm mostly aware of pay in the Bay and a few similar areas, and it is largely equivalent at the levels posted here.
Even in Seattle it's well known that FB pays more than MSFT. So your theory about top tech needing to pay top dollar etc, doesn't hold.
> There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them
This claim is false.
There are a lot more than "a handful" of companies paying $400k for senior engineers. MSFT will also pay you this amount in the Bay.
Overall, top tech pay about the same. You say FB pays better than MS in Seattle, and perhaps that is the case (as I stated above, I'm mostly familiar with the Bay, not so much with Seattle). In the Bay, the pay is very similar. There could be many reasons why FB would pay more than MSFT in the Seattle: for example, MSFT has a huge office there, and FB probably only a small one. So it's a pretty wise strategy for FB to offer larger pay for the small amount of positions they have there, and in this manner poach some of the best talent in Seattle, while for MSFT it would be prohibitively expensive to raise salaries across the board at Redmond.
That still doesn't change the big picture, which is that top tech pay is largely equivalent, outside of a few anomalies here and there.
No, they do not. Again, obviously you have never worked at a FANG company otherwise you would probably realize this. It's quite a well known fact in the Valley that FB/Google pay much better than MSFT/AMZN.
FYI, I got offers from FANG companies, specifically the ones you mentioned. There used to be a gap, but on the last round the AMZN numbers were effectively the same as Google's. My guess is that over the last few years they faced the necessity to pay equally.
I have friends working at MSFT in the Bay and their current pay also falls in line with the numbers mentioned in this thread. Of course, they're senior engineers.
I think you are quite the bitter one trying to refute every single one of my comments.
(Or at least that's the official line. I haven't examined any de facto pre-tax pay disparities between the two locations. But at least they don't adjust comp when one transfers between those locations, or between either of them and NYC; whereas they do for relos those areas and significantly cheaper areas.)
Source: personal memories of policies from 3-5 years ago, which could have changed but probably haven't.
Also, Uber and Airbnb gives RSUs which are not paper money. I am confident that an IPO for both these companies are inevitable.
Everybody has a different assessment of how likely each outcome is, so everybody has a different expected value.
Course, with the average house going for $1 million in Kirkland, they have to spend it.
That does not necessarily correlate with salary. At least it doesn't outside of SV.
If I'm making a $1M profit on you, I'll be willing to pay you up to a high fraction of this amount if I have to. Financially, even if I pay you $950K, I'm still making money. Assuming my business scales, I'd hire as many engineers like you as possible, and pay them the same. Why not? I'm making a profit for each one. Great deal for me.
Of course, if you're willing to work for $100k, I'd rather pay you that instead. Hell, I'd rather you worked for me for free!
Where does the money come for dividends, taxes, and overhead?
If there is enough supply of engineers at the same quality, no one will pay more.
Although I don't regret the time I spent outside of SV, from a financial perspective as a single young engineer, it absolutely, 100% makes financial sense to consider opportunities in SF that compensate you so well.
In my case, SV is so different that it actually made me want to leave. Personally, I can't recommend SV to anyone if monetary wealth isn't the only goal.
Furthermore, the headcounts of the really big companies, particularly Amazon and Microsoft, are inflated by non-engineers. Citing them doesn't really say much.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demogra...
This in some case makes a huge difference, especially now, where all the tech stocks have gone to the moon.
I believe that a lot of 400k$ packages would actually be no more than 250k$ if calculated correctly
You could have invested in the same stock and receive the same upside also. This is part of the luck in being in the right company or pick the right stock. That's why Total comp should be the number you got with the information you got at the time of the offer
Base salary will be around 200K, and bonus would be another 200K. Can easily be 50-100K more than that on some years.
Outlier would be 750K or more, which means the engineer is one of the most valuable members of the team.
I'm pulling these numbers from direct contact with recruiters in these companies, and in some cases job offers.
Incidentally, there's an anonymous reply from a Facebook engineer under one of my other comments in this thread. His total compensation last year was $450k.
I never claimed that median engineer is making $400k. This entire thread is about the senior engineers and their payout after 4-5 of working at a company like FB vs at a startup.
If you could do good work as an engineer at a startup for 4-5 years, pulling $400k at FB is very realistic for you. With the median being $240k, it's not going to be a whole lot less.
I'm not sure why you're trying to prove me wrong, but let's face facts: even that absolute median of $240k that includes non-engineers is better than what most engineers would pull at a startup.
Bottom line: if you can stick it out as a senior engineer at a startup for the 4-5 years it takes your options to vest, then you can realistically pull $400k/yr at FB. Except at the startup, you'd make maybe $180k base, and your "bonus" would be your bottom-preference 0.01% equity that would almost certainly be worth 0.
I think there has been a common disbelief among many commenters on this forum about engineers making that high compensation. There really isn't any upside to trying to convince others of this reality. Its easier to mock you here than to face the facts that many are losing quite a lot in opportunity cost by not working in SV. So its natural you will face a lot of animosity here.
Are you talking software engineers? Software engineers in the Bay Area? Software engineers in the Bay Area working for a subset of companies?
I suspect the reason this 'debate' exists is that we are not specific enough with our language to make our meanings clear to one another. :)
To me it's difficult to tell whether the commenters here are disagreeing over the objective reality of compensation distributions or the subjective reality of what counts as 'normal'.
Yes, to be clear that's what this argument was predicated on. Someone said "A significant percentage of SWEs at FANG style companies take home more than 400K per year" and other people said "I don't believe you.
No one ever said "A significant portion of all swes everywhere make more than 400K." That would indeed be a silly statement.
Specifically, this was the statement that started this thread:
>400k is not unusual for a senior engineer working at big tech for several years in the Bay, Seattle, NYC, or even a city like LA
That statement is objectively true for practically any reasonable definitions of "not unusual".
What evidence do you have to the contrary?
Compensation data isn't typically shared openly. Well-paid engineers have no reason to share their pay figures and create animosity or worse problems.
I'm trying to learn the truth. The previous commenter made claims about the distribution of comp. No doubt they had reasons for believing that claim. I want to know their reasons so I can update my own beliefs.
I have made no claims so I don't understand why you are asking me for the answer. I'm trying to learn the answer! :)
There are also past threads on reddit and hacker news which include anecdata that points to such compensation being reasonably common, but again that requires believing anonymous internet people.
The thing is, part of my job lets me see some outlier salary data for AI jobs and uh, I see the extreme right end of the salaried with-benefits spectrum hit a base cash comp around $300 with bonuses to $400.
Now, if we're talking, "With stock, benefits and maximum bonus included" then yes, $400k is high end but not absurd. And if you're talking a lot of work as a contractor I'd expect more.
Because if not you're RSU grant is grossly low (since I'm an L3 who isn't fully refreshed and if my grant quadrupled, I'd be nearing 400K, and my grant isn't exceptionally high).
There's more l3 & l4 employees that. L5. And way less l6/l7 than l5.
Also Uber and Airbnb don't offer liquid rsu. Nobody knows their ipo price and ipo valuation.
https://www.teamblind.com/article/Breakdown-of-compensation-...
Do bear in mind that it takes almost 10 years of steady relevant experience to get to that level (L5+). As another commenter points out, 8 years of solid experince only made an L4.
- top tech company (i.e. FAANG)
- high growth, public, mid-sized tech company (e.g. top enterprise cloud companies)
Your base salary will be between maybe $130K - $160K. And not just for engineers, technical product/program/project managers make this as well. Your bonus will be 15-20% of your base, so another $20-30K, bringing your total comp minus RSUs to $150-200K. Your first RSU grant will prob be worth $100K per year once you start vesting. If you are a top 20% performer, you will get another grant within the next year or two.
After you've been at the company for three or so years, you will have multiple RSU grants starting to vest. Once you stack these RSU grants on top of each other, your total comp can easily reach $400K for some period of time.
A couple of caveats/risks with this comp structure
- it seems companies are much more willing to throw more RSU's at you than a significant base salary increase.
- as long as the markets are rewarding growth vs profitability, the RSU's will continue to flow
- if the market crashes, the whole comp structure may crumble.
Someone coming in straight from college can realistically expect L5 in 6-8 years. Back in the day, you used to get basically kicked out if it took longer than that.
Even coming in as an L4, you can plausibly expect L5 in 2-3 years.
But why not?
Obviously you shouldn't only hire $400k-TC engineers. But if you're going to hire a team of 5-10, wouldn't it make sense to hire at least one more-senior engineer to help lead and mentor the more-junior ones?
When I was an early-stage startup founder, I was told by various advisers* that $150k should be the absolute upper limit on engineer salaries, and that I should try to talk engineers down to $110k or even sub-$100k by selling them on the "vision". I was told I should make up the difference in equity, but also that I shouldn't give an employee more than 1% in equity or maybe 2% for a "rockstar".
Do the math here. A company raises a typical seed round at $6M valuation cap, and is offering 2% over four years (considered VERY generous!). Even if we pretended that was preferred stock rather than common, it's worth $30k/yr. So you're trying to hire senior engineers while offering less than half their previous total compensation.
What ends up happening is you hire people straight out of college or away from other startups. But you cannot hire a senior Google engineer.
In my opinion, a tech-oriented startup should plan that exactly one of their first 5-10 engineers should be a senior engineer for whom they offer a salary of $200k-$250k and equity of 3-5%. Aim to poach an L6 from Google with this offer. (But only hire one such engineer early on. A team with too many senior engineers can be even worse than a team with none.)
Or alternatively, make sure one of your co-founders is such an engineer and is able to focus their time entirely on engineering, not other founder duties.
* Advisers all say different things, often contradictory. It's probably best not to listen to them, TBH. Yes, that advice applies to this comment as well, and even this footnote. Have fun.
A) actual, i.e. what you've built or
B) potential, i.e. what will you build
And then to get rich you need a multiplier on those things. But just being a good engineer, in general, does not get richly rewarded. If you show me a pure engineer who makes 1 million, I can show you a founder who made 100x from his work.
If anything, landing a job at an unicorn is much harder cause they care about things like culture fit, enthusiasm, esoteric FotM frameworks, and entrepreneurial spirit.
Point is, compensation and skill don't correlate as strongly as people think.
I heard Oracle OCI also pays in the 300-400k range (even for Seattle).
My friend at a startup is ready to quit because he's only paid $170k for the last 5 years and he regrets not staying at Apple because the shares he left on the table were worth over $1M now. He is now 0/2 in startups, both of which you have heard of, and he's very frustrated.
Before this I was first employee of a startup that eventually sold to Google. Even if I'd stuck around for the acquisition I'd have gotten $0 from my stock options—employee options were wiped out completely. Why put up with that bullshit when a big publicly-traded company will reliably deposit large sums of money into my bank account every quarter and I don't have to work crazy hours?
Plus I joined as a SWE1 so there are two promos in there.
In that specific case, I believe the startup was worth the opportunity cost. I was coming from San Antonio, not exactly a tech hotbed, and from a small liberal arts school nobody's heard of. I'd interviewed at a bunch of companies out the Bay and was rejected by all of them. A friend was an investor in TechStars' seed fund for their San Antonio program and he put me in touch with the founders of one of their companies. Those guys took a chance on me and hired me on a contract to solve some scaling issues while they were still in the program.
Once they graduated and raised a series A, they brought me on full-time. I worked remote for another six months after they moved the company up to Boulder, eventually following myself. They let me go after about two years but during that time I gained a ton of StackOverflow reputation for Scala and Akka, which led me to one of Twitter's open source advocates who made the intro for Twitter's Boulder office. That was back in 2015. About a year later the company sort-of sold to Google, who then fired almost everyone and re-sold the IP (or something, it was weird and I wasn't there, but my investor friend gave me some of the details).
So, in my specific case, the startup was worth the opportunity cost because my opportunity cost wasn't that high. I didn't have a six-figure SV job as a backup, but I was able to leverage the risk I took into that sort of job.
Reminds me of grade school, when "my uncle who works at Sega" always had let their loving nephew/niece play that game that wasn't out yet.