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Comment by User23 | Hacker News Reader

The article avoids pointing out the obvious, but the map makes it clear this rise is predominantly among white Americans.

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Whether or not it's obvious in the map, it seems to be true.

> By race/ethnicity, non-Hispanic whites and American Indian/Alaska Natives had the highest rates of suicide, with rates for both groups showing notable increases across periods [1999-2007, 2008-2015] (from 14.9 to 18.1 and from 15.8 to 20.0, respectively). Rates among non-Hispanic blacks and Asian/Pacific Islanders and among Hispanics were much lower, and showed comparatively modest increases across periods.

From https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6610a2.htm

Clustered in the central US states, primarily due to relationship issues.

Like many others, I've lived this. The worst is over, and currently I'm merely deep in debt, without material possessions, and signing over my entire paycheck as alimony (yes, all of it). Although my life is currently worth living, knowing what I now know, it would have been better to have simply opted out, rather than go through the years of hell. And that's an awful thing to be able to say.

Each situation is its own, but in general, in the USA marriage is a poor choice for men. If your ex turns evil or crazy, there will be no warning and no mercy.

And relationship success is strongly correlated to economic factors. Bad economic conditions always lead to rises in divorce and crime.

I wonder who downvoted this. It is statistically true and anecdotally, it is easier to keep relationship cool when you are not in constant stress from lack of money or hungry or simply can leave job if they treat you badly in this one.

It's not really surprising that middle-aged men who have been raked over the coals in a divorce and left with a hole they'll never get out of, would opt for an end to the pain.

Agreed. Divorce is one of the most financially devastating events that can happen in one’s life. The longer I’m alive, the longer I recommend to people to never get married. Live together, but keep your finances separate (does not apply in community property states; watch out!).

I doubt I will be able to recover from mine. I'm paying $1700 per month in child support for two kids, even though I have custody of them 45% of the time. I have Smith-Ostler riders to collect 12% from any bonus, stock option sales, RSUs, etc. I basically have to restart from scratch on my 401k, as that was used to pay off the divorce costs and equalizations. I finished paying off spousal support, which was another $1800 per month, but now I am so far in the hole that I doubt I will ever dig out. It's been over two years since the divorce, but I am still struggling just to make my mortgage every month.

I don't know if people on HN (who I assume a majority of are high earners) realize just how much money you can be on the hook for if you have a motivated ex-spouse with an attorney. My ex was a stay-at-home mom with a side business as a photographer. Good luck getting a fair shake in court when you get a W-2 salary, and the other party runs their own business.

Edit: typo - I have 45% custody, not 55% custody.

Prenuptial agreements are a thing. Though there's probably some sound thinking behind the point of view that if you aren't willing to get married without a prenup, then you really shouldn't be getting married.

Good luck actually getting that pre-nup enforced in court!

Just don't get married, unless you are ready to lose it all if it goes south.

Or you can marry someone who doesn't consider divorce an option, for example a devout Catholic. Of course that assumes they will stick to their beliefs in the face of temptation, and observably many do not.

The suicidal feelings are generally temporary. Only 10-15% of people who unsuccessfully attempt suicide try again successfully. The linked study shows a high percentage of causes that are temporary like relationship trouble or crises within a one-month window.

And that may be a useful perspective in many instances, but it doesn't tell the real story.

Those feelings are certainly not temporary for those who are successful and are also unlikely to be temporary for the people left in the wake of a successful attempt. My best friend killed himself in the 5th grade, then another very, very close friend in the 8th. I've known 3 other people who I would call a friend who have killed themselves. I'm 37 years old and I still think of these people. I don't dwell, but I certainly do remember these events and their supposed causes clearly.

Source?

It's in the post...

And specifically (and overwhelmingly) males. My own experience would point anecdotally toward it as well, as the four people whom I knew personally who died by suicide were white male Americans.

Suicide attempts are more common among women. But they are less likely to use the most effective methods (e.g. firearms), so they often survive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide#...

I don't think you can infer that from a map, but my recollection is that I have read exactly that. Older white men were also the ones who, in the aggregate, took the biggest hit to their careers and incomes in the recent recession. The recovery has seen a lot of hiring, but wages are "sluggish." Given that men often literally can't even get laid if their income is too low, I can well see that taking its toll on someone and them deciding to just throw in the towel.

"Suicide decedents without known mental health conditions (11,039; 54.0%) were compared with those with known mental health conditions (9,407; 46.0%) for 27 states. Whereas decedents were predominantly male (76.8%) (Table 1) and non-Hispanic white (83.6%), those without known mental health conditions, relative to those with mental health conditions, were more likely to be male (83.6% versus 68.8%; odds ratio [OR] = 2.3, 95% CI = 2.2–2.5) and belong to a racial/ethnic minority (OR range = 1.2–2.0)."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6722a1.htm

The map absolutely does not make that clear. It could equally be the case that minorities are dying by suicide more in communities where they are totally engulfed by white folks (or folks of any other characteristic that matches the map distribution).

Did they correct for any confounding variables? Old people are more likely to kill themselves and US has an aging population.

Edit: Also, old people in the USA are more likely to be white.

I don't have time to follow the links and dig into the data quality but a recent SSC post[0] claims "Blacks and Hispanics have only about half the suicide rate of whites", which seems pretty strong to be accounted for by average age differences.

[0]http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/31/in-search-of-missing-us...

Yeah, I think I'm completely wrong. It's middle aged white men who have the highest likelihood. Those 64-75 have a lower rate. [0]

[0] - https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

According to https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ younger Hispanic people are much more likely than young white people.

If true, that is interesting. My observation posted elsewhere here is that it seems to me that higher suicide states seem to be more Republican party states. Not a perfect correlation, but comparing the two maps seems to indicate more than a casual relationship.

Not clear what "...more than a causal relationship" means.

This isn't exactly the best time to be a white male. There is a lot of hatred, both institutional and cultural, directed their way.

That's true.

But it's still a much better time to be a white male than a nonwhite male, or female, or any type of transgender, in many parts of the world.

It is harder to be a white man today than it was for my father's generation.

There is now almost as much institutional hatred directed our way as there is for... no, that's overstating. There is definitely a lot of institutional hatred directed our way, but it still doesn't come anywhere close to the level of institutional hatred directed at literally every group other than white men.

The gap between white men and everyone is shrinking, but it's still there.

The gap closes, but it closes both ways. Minority groups climb incrementally up the ladder of political and cultural relevance by tearing down the power structures which have implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) served to benefit the white majority, and some white people feel persecuted as their identity with that majority privilege and the assumption of their point of view being the cultural default diminishes.

It sucks to be ostracized, to be tarred with inaccurate stereotypes based on your gender and race, and to have political and social barriers put in place to hold you back on the basis that you are somehow wrong because of the circumstances of your birth, the color of your skin or the configuration of your genitals?

Yes. Yes, it does, doesn't it?

However... no one is lynching white people from trees, holding picnics for it and selling photos of it in drugstores. That is what "institutional hatred" looks like and nothing even close to it is happening to white people, or likely would be tolerated in modern society. What they're getting is the kid-gloves introduction to relative minority membership status.

I wish I could upvote you twice!

I used the phrase "institutional hatred" to mirror the comment to which I was replying, but indeed, what GP perceived does not, in my opinion, even really resemble institutional hatred.

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