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Comment by Buetol | Hacker News Reader

As somebody who got refunded: As much as I want to support Elon, I later realized the full total cost of the car (having a garage, doing the maintenance,..) wasn’t in my budget and that it’s simply better to invest in a lifestyle where I just don’t need a car. Interrestingly, I had the same conclusion about buying an house versus renting a appartment.

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I think Tesla's are beautiful and have set the bar, but if you want a capable & cheap alternative, look at a used BMW i3. Resale value sunk for many reasons but has bottomed.

<salesman>I bought a 2016 fully-loaded REX with 5,000 miles for under $25K, sticker was $58K. Factory warranty for 4 years, 8 years on the battery. Fastest BMW from 0-40mph. This thing flies for urban commuters. It comes with a charger that can plug into a conventional socket which can be nice for people who don't have the means to install a 240v. Fun to hack with BimmerCode to customize all sorts of stuff. My big complaint is the rear door system is awkward. It also rides a little high so I put 1" lowering springs and 15mm wheel spacers which greatly improved handling.</salesman>

I'm also interested in testing the Jaguar iPace. By most performance measures, its beaten the Model X.

but, but, the range :-(

It's actually probably fine for most people, but I have a long commute and it wouldn't cut it for me sadly.

The Range Extender means you can drive across United States without depending on the grid; the REX is a gas re-generator. The BimmerCode hack(s) makes it more enjoyable to actually go the distance. I now have a combined 140 miles per charge and ~2.5L gas reserve. There is a popular i3 Facebook Group where people log their long distance drives.

All of that said, my average commute is 10 miles so I'm purely electric about 95% of the time unless I forget to plugin. I got the REX because I thought the resell would be better in Texas.

The i3 has a "BEV" version that is much cheaper but more limited in its range; newer models are getting better tho.

The aesthetics of the BMW i3 are poor. Is that why resale value dropped?

Aesthetics are 100% subjective.

I think it's a fine looking car.

Whether something looks "good" is subjective. But you can't deny that the REX looks different from typical cars.

Subjective != arbitrary.

Yes, it's a clown car but I'm okay with that. Resale dropped due to federal tax credits and BMWs aggressive leasing plans.

For me, it was an experiment to try EV and I'm 100% sold. It also pushed me to go full solar on the home we're building. Rather make an environmental impact than a status statement.

If they made it look like any other BMW I think it would be a nice ride. I guess they may feel that dilutes the value of their other product lines?

$25k is still a bit much for a car that tiny. What you really want is a used Leaf that has bottom out at around $5000-$8000 for great condition specimens and drive great.

A used, low-mile i3 BEV (comparable to Leaf) is around $10-15k. I bought the REX which gives me 'unlimited' distance.

We got a ford focus electric it looks nicer than the frog face leaf and is zippy to. Almost like new was $16k and it works great as a local second car. But the range is really low, you can’t go more than 25-30 miles away from home. Still, we love it for what it is and does.

25-30 mile range is getting down to the point where a ~1500 e-bike would be almost as practical, unless you've got kids.

Or you live in a place with, you know, weather.

$14k buys a lot of hot cocoa

$16k on a small vehicle that can't take you more than 30 miles from home... yikes.

A Leaf is a glorified golf cart. If you can't afford a Tesla, the next best bet is a Chevy Bolt which has a 250 mile range and not a golf-cart range. (Also, you're buying American, if that's important to you)

Can go even less. I bought a 2015 Nissan Leaf with 19k miles for $8,500.

Just be careful if you’re in a cold climate. A buddy owned one and had to charge his leaf at Nissan dealerships in the cold to make it home after work - and if I recall right, his commute wasn’t more than 15mi/way.

That doesn't sound right. That's only 30 miles, total. This should be easily doable even with the cabin heater + battery heater at high highway speeds. Was this Leaf's battery healthy?

https://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-w...

Seems like if it gets cold enough it might be a problem.

Those graphs show a 50 mile range on the Leaf. That’s still enough sub 0F to get me to work and back, twice.

This makes sense - for whatever inane reason (I'm not going to outright say it's malfeasance), Nissan chose to not include active thermal management for their Leaf line of cars. Even the one they sell today only has less effective cooling.

This means that older Leafs have a greatly reduced range. Even my budget Ford Focus EV 2017 ($16k negotiated cap cost) has active thermal management for the battery pack so I might keep it off-lease.

Keep in mind, the Leaf came out 1-2 years before the Model S, and and less that 1/2 the price. It uses totally different style of batteries. Probably all cost cutting. But yeah, cooling would be nice. They did some redesign for 2015, but it is still air cooled.

Sure, but why does the 2018 Leaf not have active thermal management for their battery pack?

If my compliance-car Ford POS has it, surely the top-selling EV in history should have it by it's 2nd version model.

I live in Kansas, and have driven it sub 0F with no issues.

Leaf is my daily commuter. I inflated the tires to 42-44psi and got the extra mileage out of that. The recommended tire of 35psi is way too low too.

That's amazing. I assume that includes (implicitly) $10k federal plus CA tax credit plus $11k depreciation on a base S model.

How old was it when you bought it?

I bought it used in 1/17, so under 2 years old. Base model with QC port. No tax credits available as it was used. Though between the $7,500 federal and $10k KCP&L (I live in KS) rebate, I could have bought a new 2017 for under $15k.

The asshat Nissan dealers wouldn’t budge on list price, so screw buying new. There is a guy locally who only sells used Leafs, as a bunch came off leases, and he flips them from auctions.

http://www.forgetfuel.com

There are lots of Leafs and Model S around Kansas City. I’m sure we have the best charging network in the country.

IMO nothing beats a slightly used Volt.

Yeah, but GM products are not exactly fashionable among people shopping for Tesla alternatives.

And the i3 is? That's one of the ugliest cars on the market.

It's not about the look of the car for BMW owners, it's just about the price tag and the name on the badge.

I thought the i3 was a pretty affordable BMW esp if you can get the rebates.

I think you may fall into the category of people I was referring to, if you think $45k for a slow, base model car is no big deal.

An ugly German luxury car is still a German luxury car.

the (v|b)olt has horrible charging infrastructure.

It doesn't matter for the Volt. Since it has a range extender, there's no real need for fast charging. Just charging it every night from a 120V outlet will eliminate most gas usage for most people. If you run out of charge, it's an annoyance rather than a disaster.

I can't speak to the Bolt since I've never seen one.

I've test driven a bolt and done the diligence on it.

It needs 4 (FOUR) days to charge on a standard outlet. If you happen to own a house, you can have the higher amp outlet installed for like 2k.

Otherwise, good luck finding a fast charging station for GM cars. They don't exist.

It depends on your mileage. 4days to fully recharge from empty, if you are on a road trip (which you obviously couldn't do in a Bolt). But overnight it will charge 50miles, which covers local daily use.

It is a ridiculously well engineered car. Way more power than the competition, bigger battery than the competition. The 2009 model is still technically ahead of all the other plugins on the market.

> wheel spacer > improved handling

X) doubt

Having previously owned a used BMW: I wouldn't touch a BMW without a warranty with a 20ft pole. I mean... The only way to realign the headlights if they get thrown off for some reason is to pay the dealership $200+ because they can't self correct and the only tool that can access the headlight controllers is BMW proprietary. Run, run while you can.

>Having previously owned a used BMW: I wouldn't touch a BMW without a warranty with a 20ft pole.

Yeah, i'd agree if we were talking about traditional cars, and this comes from someone who has wrenched on every bolt of their BMW.

As far as the DIY repair-ability of BMW's electric cars? About the same as every other electric car -- which is to say 'near-zero', unless we're talking about wiper blade replacement level stuff.

To be clear, are you saying you're okay with a lack of repairability in BMW electric cars because that's standard for electrics? You're free to your perspective, but I find it a little odd. My reaction would be to simply not buy any electric cars at all. Is there any reason why the owner shouldn't be able to realign headlights in an electric car when they are able to do so with ICE cars?

I’m sure they are referring to the fact that electric cars need very little maintenance.

Electric cars might need very little maintenance during the first few years of operation, but why should I be needlessly locked out from making repairs on my own vehicle? We've let car companies create what will end up being massive hunks of useless metal and batteries, all because we won't properly regulate them to ensure end users can work on their own cars and extend their useful lives.

That right there is why current electric cars are far from green, if it ain't repairable, its trashcan ready. Trashcan ready products are the anti-thesis of environmentally sound products.

That's true to a bigger extent with ICE's than with Electric cars.

There is very little you can repair in an electric car, Its basically a battery, motor, electronics and software, and that's a plus, not a negative.

Why do you want repair something that shouldn't even exist at the first place?

Many of the issues I've had with German vehicles were not related to the ICE. These are the issues I faced in 100k miles of German car ownership: Window motor, Parasitic draw, Blower motor, Headlight ballast, Wheel bearing, Strut mount bushings, Sunroof drain channel

My BMW ran for 107k miles, only repair until now - headlight lamps for $20, self-replaced. BMWs built after 2005 are extremely reliable.

There is not as much to have fail in an electric car, but that shouldn't mean I lose the right to repair a vehicle I own. Rebuilding batteries isn't new to me, nor is compiling software.

Why should Tesla be allowed to brick every electric car that gets in a fender bender, or refuse to sell parts for cars once the vehicle is out of warranty? A lack of enforcement of the right to repair has driven repair costs on Tesla's vehicles sky high, causing their vehicles to have notably more expensive insurance premiums.

Sure the engine needs less maintenance (at least that's the claim), but there's more to the car than that. Besides the specific example was for realigning headlights and I'm not sure why the maintenance of something like that should be different for an electric car.

Because servicing and spare parts are a huge business. And unless some one is specifically looking to disrupt that part of the business. Its in their interest to keep the charges for something like that high.

I believe you misunderstood me. My original question was why serf was okay with an electric car having this lack or repairability vs one with an ICE when the specific repairability question involves something like realigning headlights which has nothing to do with ICE or not. Of course you're right that manufacturers are more than happy to extract extra money from consumers through such servicing agreements, but that has nothing to do with my question. Besides that reasoning applies to manufactures of ICE vehicles as well so your point is honestly totally irrelevant.

Oh man though a BMW without a warranty though... once it hits that... the cost of repairs has to skyrocket and resale has to drop like a rock.

It's an electric car. They are usually reliable until the battery or drive train fails, at which point they can be used as excellent chicken coops. Things like brakes, body, electrics should be fixable on the cheap by regular non-brand shops.

Those aren't the expensive parts on a BMW, look up what a headlight assembly runs for instance.

The body has a high portion of elements made of carbon fibers. Depending on the damage it can very quickly be a total write-off.

i3 resale value sunk because it's ugly as sin.

It's like BMW didn't get the memo that electric cars don't have to look like electric cars anymore.

i3 was an early one.

Not early enough for that to be an excuse for BMW. It looks like it was “inspired by” the style of a neon rubber G3 iBook.

Next year's electric X3 doesn't look that much different from the normal X3.

With that argument the Model 3s resale value should be "we give you 1000 Dollar extra if you take it from our hands. PLEASE?!"

Why, what's wrong with the model 3 (tesla or BMW)? They're both pretty benign looking IMO.

I had never seen one. Googled. Exactly as described.

I thought the same. But over time the look has grown on me. I think the 2018 model looks really good. The interior is especially nice. It's the only game in town if you want an affordable RWD (fun) electric drive.

Or a Chevy Bolt!

> Fastest BMW from 0-40mph

What is this nonsense?

The REX isn't even as fast as the standard i3, nevermind considering actual performance-oriented BMWs. Your statement is so generalized it includes the S1000RR and HP4 superbikes in its comparison, hogwash.

glad someone mentioned bikes(motorcycles). very friendly to the environment, well except of course super sports | sports since they guzzle gas. but sill better mpg than most cars. my stolen fz1 used to get 50mpg when I was doing over 120mph

I highly doubt your fz1 got 50mpg while traveling over 120mph.

Presumably you mean you averaged 50mpg across a tank of gas which included some time spent > 120mph, which is a huge difference. Most riders can't really sustain > 120mph for an entire tank of gas, which is typically the granularity of measurement for casual mpg estimates made at fillup time.

My experience with liter bikes was that the fuel economy dropped to < 10mpg approaching vmax, which in combination with their small tank capacity poses a very real problem for those fleeing police.

i was like wtf at that comment too, partly because i drive a pure electric i3 for almost 4 years, partly because of the motorcycles, though a pure electric i3 IS fast.

I've never been in an i3, but just judging from the numbers on wikipedia; 168 BHP with a claimed 2635 lb curb weight, reminiscent of Mazda MX-5 numbers, is not what I'd call a fast power:weight ratio.

There's no doubt in my mind that the i3 feels quick off the line being electric. But I don't think it qualifies as fast unless you're comparing it to a Nissan Leaf or other comparatively slow EVs.

i3 with REX is _not_ the fastest BMW from 0-40. i3 pure electric is faster, for one counterexample.

Having driven one for nearing 4 years, it's crazy fast.

Correct. "one of the fastest..." is more accurate. The new m4's beat the i3 0-30 but only by a few fractions.

In any event, it's very very fast for an urban commuter and I annoy plenty of people driving AMGs and Porsches in my clown car.

  I'm also interested in testing the Jaguar iPace. By most performance measures, its beaten the Model X.

You are lying. The iPace is FAR behind the Model X in all performance measures. The iPace has a manufacturer's estimated range of ~350km, no EPA rated range given. The Model X has EPA rated maximum range of 475km - that's a third party verified range that is 125km above the estimated (and very optimistic) range of the iPace. As far as speed goes, iPace is 4.8s to 100km/h, while the P100D variant of the Model X is 0 - 100km/h in 3.6s, a solid second faster.

I don't know why you write such obviously wrong things. They are blatantly false and misleading. Don't write stuff that is blatantly wrong, you poison the internet along with the collective human consciousness.

I appreciate that someone is stable able to cast a critical view on those spreading non-facts. I hope this catches on.

A relative of mine who works for JLR was claiming that the iPace was better than the Model X in every way the other day too. He started reeling off figures that were blatantly inferior. I can only assume GP also works for them. It's a strange mindset over there.

One of us is correct, depending on what the other is talking about. But "FAR behind" is a bit of a gross overstatement. I also don't understand your negativity except that it must be rooted in a love affair for Tesla/Elon.

When I said performance, this is the video I watched that compelled me to get interested in what Jaguar was doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keWERJBfDPI

You are being fooled, they never show the backside of that Tesla Model X to reveal the battery size. They are also not really an independent third party

EVs have lower maintenance costs than traditional cars. Over the 6 years I've owned a Volt, I've only had to take it into the shop a total of 3 times for oil changes, and another 6 times for general tire maintenance. The Model 3 should be the same.

I'm pretty sure the Model 3 car charger is tax deductible as well.

The only real caveat is that you need to own a house and most likely a garage, though I know there are many EV owners who have outdoor consumer chargers.

I was just talking to someone last week who installed a Tesla charger in the common garage of their condo complex, in front of their assigned spot. The condo hooked it up to the unit's electric meter so that they could get billed for the energy.

> The only real caveat is that you need to own a house and most likely a garage

Not necessarily. I own a Leaf and can make it to and from work (50 miles) with range to spare. I usually charge up at work, at cost, just to have that extra mileage for incidental need after work since I don't have L2 at home. It costs about $30 a month for me to do that which is less than 1/4 what I use to pay in gas.

I work in downtown Atlanta and many work places offer free charging stations. There are plenty of DC Fast Chargers around the metro area in convenient places like grocery stores where you spent 15+ minutes or more shopping.

With a higher range EV, like a Tesla, I think it would be pretty easy to get by without ever charging at home.

In most climates, you really do need a garage. I'm in southern Ontario, and we have neighbours with an electric Soul. They really like it, but they do have to do all kinds of goofy hacks to deal with the charger getting iced into the car on winter nights— stuff like wrapping a towel around the handle and then pouring a warm kettle over it.

I recently bought a used Volt, and man do I think it's such a shame this car gets so much less press than Tesla.

I think it's a great car, and when you think about it, it's a much better fit for the majority of people's lifestyles. My commute is short enough so that I rarely need to use gas. One tank has lasted me 3 months so far and I haven't even used half the tank yet. However, it's great knowing that I can use it when needed, and thus I never get "range anxiety".

Also, since the electric range on my Volt is 40 miles, I didn't need to install any special electrical equipment. I just charge it on a normal 110 volt outlet (I set the charging to 12 amps which is fine on this outlet because it's the only thing on it) and it easily charges overnight.

I really do think the Volt merges the best of both worlds, and while I do think that all-electric is the future, for the time-being a plug-in hybrid is really a better option for most people IMO.

Is there any concern around having a tank full of gas so old? Do you add a stabilizer to keep it from going stale?

If it does run often enough to burn the fuel, the generator will actually turn on solely for that reason.

His point is that gas spoils. It polymerizes creating a bunch of hunk that clogs the fuel lines

would be a good idea to run a good fuel preserver in the gas

https://www.goldeagle.com/product/sta-bil-fuel-stabilizer/ (no affiliation, I just have old cars in storage)

This mostly happens in the presence of air. As long as the gas tank is tightly sealed, this isn’t an issue. I drive a BMW i3, I regularly have a tank of gas sloshing around for months with no issues.

All of the plug-in hybrids run maintenance cycles every month or so to ensure that the motor turns over and some fuel goes through the injectors.

His point is that gas spoils. It polymerizes creating a bunch of hunk that clogs the fuel lines

This is something that post-apocalypse fiction usually gets wrong. After a year you would probably not be able to grab any random abandoned car and drive it (even if the battery held charge)

Yeah, and the old jeeps in Jurassic World have 20 year old batteries and 20 year old fuel, and a couple of kids got one of them working again.

If you find non-oxygenated gas, that shouldn't be a problem. Ethanol based gas will go bad faster, and have issues starting in cold weather.

This x1000. I’m in my 2nd used Volt and I’ll probably be driving one for the rest of my life. Such a fun car.

I finally got a 40 watt charger installed in my garage and will sometimes fully recharge 3 times in a day.

> 40 watt charger

Didn’t realize there was a Volt RC car — I’m sure the kids love playing with it!

Whoops :)

Interesting. I've always been attracted to the idea of the Volt, but having both an ICE and EV components struck me as worst of all worlds when it comes to maintenance. I take it you haven't found that to be the case? Do you have to go to the dealership or can a typical auto shop handle routine maintenance on it?

The Volt's ICE is only used as a generator. That's much better from a maintenance standpoint, if you compare connecting two engines to the drivetrain (like a Prius).

This isn't correct. Both the older gen 1 Volts and the newer Volts with the "Voltec" powertrain can directly drive the wheels from the engine, and in fact this is actually much more common with the Voltec powertrain. This article gives a great summary: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-... .

Most people who own a Volt buy it with the plan of using the ICE as little as possible. Thus, if you use it, say, 20% of the time, you'd only have 40k miles of ICE driving after 200k miles of total driving. An ICE with 40k miles on should need very little in terms of maintenance.

Camry Hybrid engine gets an oil change and other maintenance every 10k miles.

They have a 5k mile checkup between the 10k, but that's mostly to straighten your floor mats and make sure they're locked in place. (Toyota had an unintended acceleration lawsuit years ago, partly due to the floor mat blocking the brake pedal.)

Just the dealership. I don't feel there's enough demand for technicians who know how to deal with a Volt outside of a dealership. Even dealers don't have a lot of techs who can deal with a Volt, which is why you always need an appointment for one. Of course, given that it rarely needs maintenance I don't have any issues with going to a dealer. I could be wrong but the real maintenance costs for EVs start around years 7 or 8.

I've owned my Volt for about a year now, it's frankly been the best car i've ever owned. I'm -shocked- that these things aren't selling better, on the used market it's probably one of the best values on the vehicle market today next to the leaf. I have the new gen with ~ 65 mile range in Florida. I visit a gas station -maybe- once every 3 months, and it's only when i'm doing a drive over to Orlando or the east coast.

Wouldn’t the appropriate parallel be renting a car? A rented apartment has zero value next month if you don’t pay for it; meanwhile a car and an installed charger would presumably have some value next month.

Cars depreciate, just like housing requires maintenance: https://affordanything.com/is-renting-better-than-buying-sho.... Housing does not automatically appreciate, though artificial limits on the supply of housing in some metros can temporarily make it feel as if it does.

Unless you're talking about renting vs buying the car, I still don't see the parallel. "Whether or not I should rent this shelter" has little to do with any of the concerns of "do I need a car at all?"

I just faced this issue of lease, finance, or mobility. I went for the latter since I don't want to go for the hassle of parking, fuel, and maintenance anymore. Further, I believe it's better for the environment.

I think this is key.

A lot of people got completely trumped on the supposedly low-price of 35k$. This is where the magical Charisma of Musk played so well.

At the end of the day, it is closer to a 60k$ car than a 35k$ car (not even accounting for tax-money helping people to buy it cheaper). And if you really think about it, I cannot see how you can justify the model3 being worth 60k$ !

you got sold on a 35k$ car, and before you know it, you spend 60k$

Do you mean because Tesla isn't yet building the base models?

because the car will be so bare down at the sticker price of 35k$ that most people will take some of the upgrades (for things you would expect out of the box for other cars at that price tag).

https://mashable.com/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-true-cost-more...

But it’s the same for all other cars. If you look at a base Audi or bmw, they are also pretty empty for their starting price

There aren't any mainstream cars that base at $35K and option for $30K higher. Name a make and model.

Nissan GT-R.

Base is $99,990.

Premium edition is $110,490.

Track Edition is $128,490.

Finally, there's NISMO edition, $175,490. With all the options, nearly $183,000.

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/sports-cars/gt-r/build-pr...

EDIT: Of course, a Nissan GT-R isn't even the same market as a Model 3, so I'm not sure you could really use it as an example.

There are many. It comes down to what you define as an option, but if we use Tesla's definition as "the same model":

- Camaro. Base: $27k. Fully loaded: Above $70k. Of course, this is mainly because it goes from a 2.0L turbo 4 to a 6.2L turbo V8, but then again, a motor upgrade is also available as an "option" on the Model 3 so... Its the same model, same platform.

- Mercedes C300. Base: $40k. Fully Loaded: Above $70k. No engine or platform changes, exact same trim level, just options; exterior trim, premium leather, sound system, tech, etc.

- BMW 3-Series. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $65k. Both an engine and drivetrain upgrade included.

- Ford Mustang GT. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $55k. Not as drastic, but significant because again no engine change; Ford sells both a premium "trim", a complete interior upgrade, and a performance pack that modifies things like the diff ratio, bodywork, etc.

Yeah that is not the same as a Model 3 comparison.

With the Model 3 you were led to believe a $35K car existed, but it never did.

A C300 4 banger will be not be confused with a AMG C63s before ordering.

The C300 in that example is not a C63s. Its a C300 completely optioned out. Same model. Same engine. Most of the cost comes in exterior options (which are often borrowed from the AMG models), interior comfort (ultra quality leather seats), and tech (premium speakers, some form of autonomous driving).

And that's just what is on their website. Especially with BMW, you can go wild at the dealers with customization. You can turn a $40k car into a $100k car easily, just with factory options.

Again, no. Just because you can dump a bunch of roof accessories and floor mats into a C300 doesn't qualify it for a $30K increase that you are mislead to believe.

Also, I don't know if you've ever bought a car, but you just can't add all the options up on a car's build page and obtain the highest possible price. Many of those options are redundant and cancel each other out when you run down the line and click on them (packages). What's your $100K C300 build link?

You have to be very naive to think that even a $40K BASE model car options to a hundred grand "easily".

Remember, we're discussing the lie that the Model 3 is. That it's a $35K vehicle that will ship mid to late 2017.

- BMW 3-series vs a fully loaded M3 is like 35K to almost 90K - Audi A4 vs S4 can be 30K added - probably any base luxury model has a huge sport upgrade path. The GT-R used to be a Nissan Skyline upgrade.

Challenge accepted. BMW 320i base is $34k. BMW 340i xDrive with all the trimmings is a hair over $60k.

How bare down? Is a base Model 3 much more bare than a 320i?

How about each with $5k in upgrades? 10k?

> And if you really think about it, I cannot see how you can justify the model3 being worth 60k$ !

I agree with everything you said but that statement. What in your opinion constitutes a 60k car?

I am always amazed by luxury cars whenever I ride in them, not by how nice they are, but by how they're just tacky "luxurious" material cladding slapped on a cheaper car. Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, and Chrysler cars are just Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, and Dodge cars covered in tacky leather and lick&stick wood paneling costing 30k more.

You’re forgetting about performance. Cadillac and Lexus are usually rear wheel drive or all wheel drive and quite a bit faster than their non-luxury counterparts. And all of them have more technology than the non-luxury brands.

The power train and drive train can be different as you pointed out, and sometimes they're not. One of the upgrades for the Model 3 is to the power train and drive train as well.

As for technology, eh... maybe.

Safety features like airbags, backup cameras, ESC and anti-lock brakes are now mandatory on most smaller cars. Lane departure, dynamic cruise, blind spot detection, and huds are becoming standard features on most mid sized cars. Newer features like Super Cruise are optional just like Auto Pilot in the Model 3.

I don't think the entertainment or nav packages in any car are worth it. I would actually consider paying extra for them to remove it and instead put a shelf for my phone with a USB port.

For comparison, I was considering a Model 3 last summer. I had an old small truck that had broken down and was renting an Altima. I couldn't wait for the Model 3 reservation, so I got a certified pre-owned Camry Hybrid. It included a 7 year warranty and 8 year battery warranty, and I added an additional maintenance warranty. I had chosen an XLE, with all of the features I wanted and many more.

I drove the car home that day, and paid $3000 less than the theoretical base Model 3 would cost. The car gets 30-45 MPG consistently, so uses about twice the energy of a Model 3, and is limited to more expensive but more ubiquitous gasoline for fuel. But this is also okay as I'm in an apartment and have no charger at work.

I think some forget that the competition for the Model 3 is wider than just EVs. Lower fuel and maintenance costs are only worth so much.

How much does gas and maintenance cost you? Also, Model 3s will be available used eventually too. Obviously if you want a used car you can't get a newly invented model.

I paid for an extra maintenance package, so I believe I'll only have to pay for tires and paint for the next several years. The 14 gallon tank gives more than 500 miles of range, so I fill up about twice a month - about $1000-$1200 a year.

I'm very interested in adding batteries to my Camry Hybrid in the long run, to increase its battery range, and hopefully add plug-in functionality. The biggest question is where to put the batteries. In the 2018 model, they added one underneath the rear seat.

Conversely I don't need a new car and I'm unsure if we'll actually buy a Model 3 when our reservation comes up. Chances are that we won't because new cars, not just Tesla's, are ridiculously expensive and you get much better value for your dollar with used cars. However I still have my reservation because I believe in what Tesla is/has done and I strongly want them to succeed because I feel that if they fail it will give auto manufacturers an excuse to stop producing EVs. I feel so strongly that we need to get off the ICE and into EVs that I just might buy a new Model 3 solely to support an ideal even if it will put an excess burden on myself.

Lexus quality is nothing like a Toyota. Sure, it's the same core architecture, but the refinement is a league above. Driving a Lexus feels like gliding in a spaceship, and the interior comforts are more comfortable. I assume the other luxury cars are similar.

I wouldn't buy one, but I've driven one.

You would be surprised how much of that driving feel can be tuned in software or with relatively inexpensive suspension components.

The interior comforts are variable but I am always surprised by what passes as luxury in some makes. The BMW and Lexus cars I have driven are definitely on the nicer side but still not that impressive.

I can recall ever saying "wow this is impressive", the best has been "everyone should be doing this" but mostly it's just disappointment.

There will be the standard range battery model released later this year with a $35,000 price tag. In the U.S. after the $7,500 federal tax credit, the final price should be well below $30,000.

Tesla is focusing on producing the higher priced versions first in order to have the cash flow to produce the standard model.

If Tesla wanted to start with producing the standard model first, they probably would have needed a very large cash infusion with unfavorable terms. There are definitely conflicting opinions on this but they have chosen a slightly more conservative route in order to not put the business at risk. The end result is we have to wait a bit longer for the standard model, and as such some people may feel obliged to cancel their order, or even be upsold to a more expensive model 3 or even an S/X.

Do you think the tax credit will still be around by the time Tesla ships a $35000 model 3? That's going to be a narrow buying window!

Probably not the full credit, unless you have a spot in line already. The phase out starts during the quarter when the company hits 200,000 total deliveries. If we assume this is going to be July 1st, then the $7,500 credit is good for Q3 and Q4. This takes us to December 31st.

At this point, the credit is reduced to $3,750 for 6 months and then to $1,875 for 6 months.

Using a lot of speculation and extrapolation, I would estimate that if someone placed an order now and wanted a standard model they would still probably be able to hit either the $3,750 or $1,875 credits.

It's worth noting that the sense of a lot of media is that Congress is going to remove the cap before GM hits it, which is not so different from when Tesla is going to hit it.

And before you think it's a partisan thing, there is significant quiet Republican support for the credit.

Yes, I think it is because it will be kind of weird when U.S. automakers GM and Tesla hit the cap first and they are at a “disadvantage” as compared to the European and Asian automakers.

>not even accounting for tax-money helping people to buy it cheaper

Not accounting for the investors subsidizing it, either!

Is the Model 3 sold at a loss? I'm pretty sure the Model S was, but haven't heard anything definitive about the 3. Except for Elon Musk's comments, which I don't trust for a second.

If you looked at the price range of the Model S, then interpolated for the base Model 3 price, it's not hard to imagine the price of the configuration that you would be buying. Without going to the P model, the price of a Model S goes up 50% just with options. Extrapolating for the Model 3, base price of $35k means you are looking at $50k without a performance model, just with some options added.

If those numbers are painful, you really shouldn't be in the market formthis car in the first place. If a car costs more than ⅓ your annual income, you probably shouldn't be buying it.

My first and only question: have you never owned a car before? Your message makes me think you jumped into the decision of buying a new car without much thought, or a lack of understanding of what car ownership entails.

But he didn't really jump into that decision. He put down money for an easily refundable deposit, and then got his money back.

He seemed surprised about general needs and maintenance of vehicles, or was I misreading his comment?

Yes, I currently have a cheap diesel car (bought it for 1500€) and I planned to resell it when my tesla would arrive. Nonetheless, I agree with you that it wasn’t well planned, but I guess is surely true for many other people whi pre-ordered out of excitement like me.

EDIT: Also at the time I was earning 3 times more than now, making it an affordable option

Not op but I used to own a car and I could not be happier about not owning one anymore.

My daily commute does not necessitate a car, nor does grocery shopping.

I have a boosted board for when I want to shorten my commute or explore the city a bit.

I sometimes use Lyft or rent a car but the cost is ridiculously smaller than what owning a car would cost me.

It is dependent on many factors, for example a job change might force to buy a car but right now it works extremely well for me.

Beyond that, it's just hard to commit to a huge purchase like a car 1+ years in advance. Once the day of arrival comes near it seems like there would be a lot of people who decide to get refunds for various reasons. I think the rate would be high even if things were going perfectly (which, to be fair, they are not).

So you decided to not have a house or apartment?

If you live in an older condo building with an uncooperative board, and physical challenges/long distances related to surface mounted conduit routing in the underground parking garage, it could be $8,000 of licensed electrician work to run a new 240VAC circuit to your single parking spot.

edit: there are also a number of people who have street parking only. Look at any older neighborhood, it could range from Queen Anne hill in Seattle, to many parts of Boston. Houses may have neither garages nor alleyways.

One of the things they did with the Model 3 was to improve the efficiency of 120V charging, partly for that reason. Trivia: In Canada, the CEC since 2012 requires a NEMA 5-20 outlet for EV charging at a minimum, and with the Model 3 6-7 miles per hour with it is not uncommon.

It's still not going to be able to pull anything more than about 1700W from a 120V 15A circuit. Maybe slightly more efficient but the bottleneck is the amperage capacity of the circuit. Think of 120V charging as exactly like a hair dryer.

AFAIK for EV charging it is ~1400W for a 15A outlet and ~1900W for a 20A outlet (because the load is continuous), and the difference between the two for the Model 3 is probably around two miles per hour or so.

Correct, assuming a dedicated circuit in the US, code dictates that it'd be 1440W and 1920W for a 15A and 20A outlet, respectively. Continuous loads can only pull 80% of the max circuit load.

In theory, you could also run a 100% rated breaker to pull more power, but the car would have to be able to support it as well.

We use 120 to charge our leaf. It charges at 4 miles per hour. Plug it in after a typical 40 mile day and it is ready in the morning.

Some government agency is likely to step in and make this illegal, right? Just like the FCC allows me to put up a satellite dish no matter what my landlord or condo board says?

AFAIK some states have such laws, but apartment 120V charging will still likely be the mainstream in the short term. Especially as apartment dwellers are likely to live closer to work for example, not to mention the cost if every parking spot had it (there is even power sharing with EVSEs).

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. The government already stepped in to make sure that you had to pay $8k for an electrician to get the job done (actually you're probably paying for the licensed electrician to send out an apprentice to to the job). It's all about who's special interest group hires the better lobbyist.

The state laws I have seen don't dictate the exact cost, though there may be other issues like unions which applies to many kinds of electrical work.

I'm just saying that just because your side is "right" doesn't mean the other side doesn't have a better lobbyist.

Palo Alto has such a law.

I decided that it’s better for me to rent for now mostly to be totally free of any loan.

Also, I can optimize for lifestyle changes more easily (choosing to have a garden or not, living with more people or less, moving to a more luxirious or a cheaper condo based on my earnings,...)

I recently made that decision too. I sold my car and now never have to worry about parking. Uber and renting a car is substantially cheaper.

I see people say this all the time, but how is this possible? Do you work from home? I only live a few miles from work and Uber would still way out-expense a car payment, gas, and insurance...and even then, my car is worth a few thousand at the end, at least.

Not that I've seriously pursued this angle but napkin math tells me it would either break even or cost more to Uber.

> I only live a few miles from work

Bike?

Sure, but I was talking about Uber vs owning your own vehicle.

I used to Uber in the morning and take the bus home in the evening. Came out to less than $350 a month, including the bus pass. Not sure how that compares to a car payment plus insurance and everything else since I've never owned a car.

What I will say is that I was in a car incident while I was taking a ride share (competitor of Uber) and for me it'd be worth it just to not have to deal with the aftermath of something like that.

I can use Amtrak to visit family, which I greatly prefer to Chicago traffic. I walk to work and can use Uber with my company's pre-tax benefits when I need to go somewhere else. I don't have to pay for parking, which is pretty expensive and my driving insurance is half what it used to be. For the 4-5 times a year I actually want to drive I can easily rent a car. Uber pool is also pretty cheap if you are not in a hurry. Plus if I am desperate I can take public transportation. But at one point when I had a nonwalking commute I realized Uber pool was roughly the same cost as public transportation and much more comfortable. I probably pay 75 on Uber a month, plus the 25 for insurance. Vs 140 on parking and 68 on insurance. Car rental is 100.

I drive a moped, and I don't care =P

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