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Comment by z5h | Hacker News Reader

This is hard. Children can be incredibly boring. I love my kids immensely and they are definitely fascinating at times. But there are games they want to play that literally put me to sleep. Or sometimes my daughter will take 15 minutes to brush her teeth. Should I just stare day after day, week after week? It's BORING. Right now my kid is taking the longest dump and I'm waiting outside of the bathroom. What should I be doing?

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I think the key is what happens when they're ready for interaction. When she's done brushing or using the bathroom, do you put the phone down right away, or finish reading/playing? Similarly, if you're focusing on something else instead of playing the (boring) game, your kid will know it. Kids are very good at recognizing when mom and dad aren't paying attention. They'll learn your "attention hierarchy". Do it enough and they'll learn that phone > my game/idea/talk. Definitely a balancing act.

We've found it useful to just be honest with them. "Dad needs 5 or 10 minutes of Dad time, then we'll play."

I think this is the right answer. You need to steal some you time while you can but still be attentive when you need to be. I imagine the kid that wrote the letter in the article is used to being wholeheartedly ignored while Mum checks Facebook. If you go to cafes you can watch this phenomenon unfold right in front of you: inattentive parents on their phones whilst their kids vie unsuccessfully for a little bit of connection with their favourite people in the world.

Agreed. No one should be expected to just sit and watch each of those long dumps splash into the toilet bowel however when I take my kids to the park playground and play with them there I see many parents never supervising and just staring into their phones even when the kid is calling out to them. Like most things the right balance is needed.

It easy to judge when you don’t know what else is going on in people’s lives... some parents are the sole carers of their kids and spend 16 hours a day looking after them. The park may be the only time in the day they get some downtime when the kids are occupied running around

Yes totally. I go on my phone too sometimes when they play but try to make it a point to look up and check periodically to ensure either they're not in trouble or irritating someone else. The problem is these things can happen in an instance. They are definitely exhausting and getting the balance right is hard. I was talking more about someone who's disappeared for a half hour sitting faraway or there is a kid going crazy (had one attacking others with a stick) and none of us even know where/who the parent is. That sounds more like the sort of thing the article is talking about, if your kid is wishing the phone wasn't invented you're probably on it too long.

Young children from 3 to 5 years old are awesome. You can spend hours playing with some sticky tape and a sheet of paper. make a sticky loop with the sticky on the outside, and use it in between to stick things together. Make a Möbius strip and ask them to draw a line along it. Make a three colour hexaflexagon[1]. Make paper dice with different numbers of sides, drawing them out flat with tabs and cutting them out and sticking them together.

The first 3 to 5 years are critical in several stages of a child's mental development[2]. Too many adults think kids are a waste of time until they are older, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The more time you spend with them and the more of a positive relationship you develop, the more it will pay off in spades later on. They seek attention because they love you and they desperately want to spend time with you. 4 year olds want to get involved and help with everything - let them, even if it means the job takes twice as long. You will never have as much influence over the development of your child again.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexagon#Hexaflexagons

[2] http://www.factsforlifeglobal.org/03/

Yes, but have you ever looked after a 3 year old for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. It’s hard work, and I doubt most people can maintain absolute focus on their kids all the time for that length of time...

I split the work 50/50 with my wife for the most part. We both had work shifts, so arranged things so when one was working the other looked after the girls. It was hard on our relationship, but worked out for the best.

It's incredibly hard work, and draining because they are potentially in danger almost all the time. We were lucky enough to have two girls 15 months apart, which is more work sometimes, and less others because they played a lot together. However some of my fondest memories of spending time with my daughters is from that time.

That sounds tough, happy to hear you made it through.

I’ve seen quite a few families where one parent doesn’t do any childcare... that looks super tough, which is why I can forgive those parents sometimes zoning out and playing with their phone...

Yes, you need breaks, that means that even if you're a stay-at-home parent it's important to send your baby/kid to daycare a couple of days a week.

It's good for you so you can have a life other than just being a parent, and it's good for your kid because he/she can learn to socialize early and interact with someone else than you.

But I understand it's not always easy to find affordable daycare depending where you live.

You've reinforced my decision not to have kids, far too much responsibility.

> You've reinforced my decision not to have kids, far too much responsibility.

Absolutely. I agree with you and I think more people should choose to not have children. There is still a stigma about it. I think the stigma would go away or at least subside if more people opted to not have children.

None of what you replied to goes against what you said (eg 15 minutes waiting for them to brush their teeth).

>What should I be doing?

Get bored. It's OK to be bored from time to time. Your brain needs to get bored. Being able to get bored is becoming an increasingly rare skill. I'd speculate that cognitive abilities improve after periods of boredom.

Boredom is a source of creativity, or so I remember after an article I read. In all honesty, I have experienced it and some of my most profound(?) ideas came while I was bored.

Boredom is also a source of risk of doing something just that anything changes.

The better solution is experimenting instead of being bored or chasing a hit. That with proper design and risk analysis.

When I’m bored, I’m apt to decide to upgrade something in my lab environment and break everything.

Yes, but it's also true (or even more true) for children. So it's OK for a kid to get bored while their parents are busy with something, be it their phone or anything more valuable.

I don't know whether it's okay or not. A teenager is more likely to be able to spend that downtime on something useful. Children, not as much. Whilst, I understand - more than most people - that we need alone time, I think that parents spend a lot more time on their phone, be it facebook, reddit, twitter, instagram etc, than they would like to admit.

I am sure they could sneak - if they already don't - some time on social media while the kids are playing on their own. For a kid, time with their parents is integral for growing up and having a healthy relationship with them. Most kids however don't get to experience it.

Additionally, time spend on facebook and social media has correlation with depression and stress. I don't think this is the best environment for a kid to be brought up.

Half a dozen replies are saying the same thing as you. Are you all taking your own advice? Do you spend time being bored without picking up your phone or getting on a PC?

Always? No. Often? Absolutely.

I can't cite any research on boredom. But after reading some articles I realized that continuous consumption of entertaining information makes me tired and agitated. So I restricted social media and internet news only to desktop and left only messaging apps on my phone, letting myself get bored while commuting or waiting for something. While subjective and anecdotal, I can confirm that occasional boredom is good for my emotional state and intellectual performance. I kind of even enjoy the periods of boredom I have now.

I dunno. How about be bored and let your brain freewheel for a minute? I get it, the dopamine comes so fast and easy - all you have to do is check Twitter or Reddit or HN.

Sure, at this point it's just Luddite speculation, but I kinda expect that we're going to find out in 15 years that not having prolonged periods of free thought (i.e. being bored) is worse for our mental health than sleep deprivation.

Depends on the child. But I find there’s ample “bored” time when both hands are occupied carry kids around for hours to help them sleep... you grab the phone sometimes to relax when you can but it’s not like their isn’t a lot of bored time too.

Yes, I think we all recognize the dangers but this is absolutely true.

I think when used correctly they can be amazingly helpful however. Looking after young kids is all about the long game. Caring for kids for up to 16 hours a day can be soul destroying, and playing with your phone when they’re occupied gives you a window into a wider world...

The alternative is spending a bunch of time staring into the distance feeling your brain slowly atrophy.

> Right now my kid is taking the longest dump and I'm waiting outside of the bathroom. What should I be doing?

Oh man I can sympathize with this one. I do the exact same thing -- pull up reddit or HN to bide the time while she contemplates the meaning of life on the can.

omg... this. I just spent 4 days at Disney. My 3 year old picked the most opportune times to need a poo. Like when we got to the front of a queue (after queuing for 4 minutes) and were just about to board he suddenly had the urgent need to go, or when we were sitting down for a meal.

And he's a SLOW pooper. He sits there for like 15 minutes and after a few splashes I'm like "are you done?" and he says no, nothing happening for five minutes so I ask again, nope still not done, five minutes later and still nothing at which point I'm like "right kid, it's time to shit or get off the pot already". In the meantime, I'm standing in a cramped cubicle waiting for him to finish so I can wipe his arse and make sure his hands are clean. FML.

> What should I be doing?

Leave the kid to take a shit and go do your own thing; kids don't need to be watched 24/7.

The OP is a bit ironic too, given how kids will also gladly spend most of their waking hours watching e.g. youtube videos and such.

Hahaha, so recognizable :) I'm always searching for stuff the kids like that I also like, it keeps me from yawning and from getting distracted. There are few things but we both like, consequently it often happens that we start out doing stuff together but someone gets very bored. Sure he also tries to make something whenever I make something out of wood but he is bored after 5 min and starts to do something else.

Getting on your phone while playing is worse than saying, I'm very bored what can we do that we both like? For me it can also be, just hop on the train and walk in a different city to have a sandwich. He also likes that. It takes some time but I learned that we both like simple things, like a walk in nature and searching for stones for example. I might take my camera to make some nice pictures. Lego is another nice thing. He makes simple things, I make steering systems or other fancy stuff with cogs.

This is so very true. Lots of waiting in parenting, and lots of repetition that gets boring. Reading some interesting stuff on the phone on the side helps. Just be ready to drop that when attention is needed, which can sometimes be hard if you're in the middle of writing a message for example.

Why do you need to wait around while your kids brush their teeth and go to the bathroom?

Because as soon as you start doing something else, they are magically instantly done with whatever they're doing. They are attention grabbers that make 40 yo Twitter wine moms look like amateurs.

Because my 4 year old son needs help wiping his ass. He’s 4, 4 year olds need help brushing teeth and wiping ass. Maybe your kids are perfect behaving prodigies who never needed help. My kid needs help.

a) we should be bored more. Let's get that out of the way.

b) When you are bored, you might choose interacting with your kid through the bathroom door. Not the funniest activity but better than just waiting. Now you aren't interacting with your kid because reading HN is funnier.

c) When your kid is done pooping you'll be absent, looking into your phone saying "1 sec" instead of immediately making contact.

I know all of this because I'm as guilty myself. I have no excuses. I think this is the key. Kids need immediate attention (and should have it), and parents shouldn't be afraid of being bored with their kids.

In all seriousness, I've had good luck passing around local two/multi-player games while waiting at restaurants, waiting for dumps, etc. such as this one: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/four-in-a-row-pro/id54784175...

Just need to disinfect everyone's hands and your phone afterwards if using it in the bathroom!

> What should I be doing?

Ask you or your partner's parents what they did when you were children, and being boring.

Actually my parents and in-laws are always saying they never spend so much time "playing", "playing is for kids, they can do it by themselves or with other kids", they always say. They may have a point that interaction with a bored parent may just kill their creativity whereas finding something to do by yourself may be a useful skill to learn. So what did they do? No idea, dad was a work and reading the paper at home while mom did stuff around the house I guess.

Perhaps we are just imitating commercials of happy families running in fields of flowers.

It also gets easier, my son is getting quite into mountain biking, can't wait until he fits a proper one with gears and proper brakes. Finding that stuff that you and your kid really both enjoy is pure gold.

Given how much freedom I had as a kid (a lot, my earliest memories include me running around outside unsupervised), I think that kids can and should play by themselves or with other kids as much as possible. As long as there is a safe environment, I don’t think kids should need constant supervision.

Recite a fairy tale. Riff on it. Make it rhyme. Replace character names with the child's friends' names.

You should learn to be mindful and bored. What is so fascinating on that damn screen?

Well, why were you on one when you commented here?

Sometimes screens are a great distraction. Sometimes they're not. The latter fact doesn't take away from the former - it's just on the user to make good judgements. There doesn't have to be something so fascinating on the screen to justify usage. Maybe it's news, maybe it's an ebook. Maybe it's HN. It's fine if the phone goes away when the kid's done taking a dump.

Similarly, what's so great about being bored? The knowledge of the history world is on my phone.

And how often do you use your phone to find actual (real and verified) and useful knowledge?.. I bet less than 1% of the time.

Doing nothing is exactly how a lot of that knowledge was discovered. Just look up biographies of famous scientists, they usually have lots and lots of leisure time, walks around the country side doing nothing and other such ''wastes'' of time.

your candor is hilarious and endearing. I'm sure you are a great parent. :)

what did humanity do before they had cell phones? do that.

Exactly. Current type of smartphones (they're not first ones) were invented about 11 years ago, and people got so incredibly addicted and dependent on them it's incredible... It's as if smartphones are literally (and I do mean literally) a vitally important part of life.

My dad drank and watched TV. His dad drank and was too tired to do anything because he was a laborer. Going further back, my family were poor serfs. Shall I find a duke to toil under?

you still have a duke and you still toil.

Shouldn't you have thought about that before having kids?

With such attitude you should have never had kids in the first place. But, it's too late for you. At least I'm smart enough to realize I shouldn't make that mistake.

We banned this account. Commenting like this will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't do it again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Encourage your child to engage in shared interests, and to brush teeth without dawdling? How old are your children, and exactly who do you think is going to raise them into productive and useful members of society?

Hahahaha! Oldest just turned 4. Do you have a four year old?

I have 0, 3 and 5 year olds. The three year old can spend at least five minutes between each spoonful of breakfast, just staring into space. She insists on using a small spoon so these things combine to create epic breakfasts too...

Three kids 5 and under. You get back what you put into them. If what you put into them is surfing your phone while they brush their teeth for 15 minutes, I feel bad for future them and future you.

Harsh I know, but sometimes that is what it takes to change a mindset. Other people have more constructive and specific ideas. I sincerely hope you think about them.

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