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Comment by udp | Hacker News Reader

Totally agree, they're great fun. :-)

It's also why I don't agree with the moral argument for veganism - happy hens lay eggs too and eggs gotta be eaten!

I also wondered this: Us humans bred them over thousands of years so that they keep laying eggs throughout the year rather than just during the breeding season, to the point that they lay them every single day. The original ancestor - Red Jungle fowl may have laid 6-12 eggs per year in the wild. Hence the 'happy hens' may not be as happy as their ancestors due to an uncomfortable period on a daily basis when they lay. Of course they may well be happy outside of this, but it may not be as glamorous life as it seems from the outside! Worth adding that their lifespan is also greatly reduced due to the stresses of laying everyday.

Well, modern hybrid commercial laying hens lay an egg every day from when they come into lay for about a year, then it goes to one every other day, and so they get culled by farmers. Their laying is also extended by artificial light, otherwise they won't lay during the very shortest days in the winter.

Pedigree hens lay about once every other day, and can live up to eight years.

Yeah, but they get to be alive. That would not be the case if they weren’t useful to humans.

In a vegan world, wouldn't there be more wild animals?

Think about how different this could look: https://xkcd.com/1338/

A couple of things:

1. Those particular animals would not be alive. I was replying to a comment about the quality of life of those particular animals.

2. Regarding the point that other animals would take their place: isn’t this an argument against veganism? Life in a state of nature is brutal and not at all what I would classify as clearly better than life under domestication.

2. I can't speak for other animals, but I can speak for myself: there's no way I would prefer to be locked up in a cage or a farm (where I will be killed and eaten, probably way before my natural lifespan) than to be free to live a natural life and be killed by predators.

Yes, you could say that providing those animals have a good life, there is an argument there. However, whilst the eggs from your own hens might be ethical, in reality, probably 95%+ of chickens are factory farmed and have pretty awful lives, in which cases their life is not so much of a gift.

As a (probably controversial) counterpoint, I'm not so sure that life in a state of nature is much better than life on a factory farm. The math of making it in the natural world is brutal: a stable population size means that, on average, only two of the offspring that an animal produces will ever become reproductive adults. You know that cute string of ducklings following their mother around? Statisticaly speaking, almost every one of them will be mauled, starved, or frozen to death.

That being said, I still believe that we have some kind of a moral obligation to provide the animals in our care with a decent quality of life.

I also used to have back garden hens, but in my opinion the moral argument stands up to examination.

Consider:

* The modern chicken is quite different to its wild ancestors, and lays eggs about 20 times more frequently (the eggs are also larger). I'd call it genetic exploitation.

* The male chickens are (most likely) killed after hatching in preference of the females you'll keep.

* They may be safe from predators, but is the loss of freedom, a natural environment and normal biological functions a price worth paying?

Your moral argument assumes we can undo thousands upon thousands of years of selective breeding. We can't.

I've raised chickens since I was a kid. We kept males and females. When the chickens stopped laying, we ate them too.

This idea that something "isn't natural" so it's wrong is ridiculous. Human technology has drastically altered the planet and we need to focus on how to work in it as opposed to fantasizing about how nice it would be if we could go back to the stone age.

So by all means, be vegan. Refuse to consume farm animals. 99.9% of the world will not. Your efforts are drowned out. Hopefully the moral superiority you gain will be an acceptable consolation prize.

I think if you are going to eat meat and dairy, then do it the right way, as you have. But, I would not underestimate the move towards more conscious eating such as veganism. Personally if I can reduce any unnecessary suffering through what I eat and still live healthily then I will do so and I am seeing a lot of others move in a similar direction.

>unnecessary suffering through what I eat

I guess plant life, bacteria and fungi don't count?

> I'd call it genetic exploitation.

Not really relevant. It's already done, and the alternative is chicken extinction. We can live symbiotically with chickens, or we can let them go extinct for vegan ideals.

> They may be safe from predators, but is the loss of freedom, a natural environment and normal biological functions a price worth paying?

Humans did this in forming societies, so clearly we by and large think the answer is yes.

...but what happens to the roosters when everyone gets hens? :)

Solution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWvbHVBw3tw

That is the saddest thing. You only really need one rooster per flock. If anyone invents a machine to sex hens whilst still in the egg they will have a lot of grateful chicken owners.

You need exactly zero roosters per flock if you're only after eggs.

That is true. Having a rooster makes it easier to introduce new hens into a flock though and raising your own hens from eggs is fun.

This is actively in the works.

https://www.manitobacooperator.ca/livestock/new-technology-d...

Same thing as male baby goats in a goat cheese operation. :/

Not even remotely similar. Goats (and cows) need to be pregnant to produce milk, which is why you inevitably end up with offspring as a by-product of milk production. Hens lay eggs regardless of whether a rooster is present, so if you get some rescue hens you can enjoy your eggs guilt-free.

Sure, but that's not the point I was making. Male goats are useless to a goat cheese farmer. Roosters are similarly ~useless to egg farmers. When chicks destined to become egg-laying hens are born, what happens to their brothers?

We'll worry about that once ALL of the rescue hens are living in our backyards. Plenty to go around for now...

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