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Comment by aarongough | Hacker News Reader

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either.

Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be merit based.

I have mostly interviewed with small/medium businesses in Toronto, but have also done early stage interviews with Google where it was also not brought up. I declined further interviews with Google because I didn't want to move, so maybe it would have been an issue later on.

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I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume:

- Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time.

- Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time.

- Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in high school at a similar college. I list both colleges, my start year, my end year, and what my degree track was. I do not claim that I have a degree, but nearly everyone assumes I do. I'm almost never asked about it.

Any time I am asked about it I'm honest to the degree they need ("I had to take a break from school due to family issues", which is true: my family had an issue with the number of "F"s I was getting).

I've actually had managers who found out after being hired who told me "if I had known that, I wouldn't have hired you"

Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient (I don't particularly think an LMFT needs to have a full degree), but the vast majority of industries shouldn't require it, and filtering for that is a cop-out.

I've been at Google for a number of years. Whether I had a degree was brought up during the recruiter conversations; nobody cared.

> I really want my doctor to actually have an MD

How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience?

“Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”

> How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience?

There are plenty of countries that do have MD programs that the United States recognizes, like Canada for instance. It's a political issue more than anything. If the medical licensing boards in multiple different countries could come together for some form of agreed licensing this could easily by possible.

> There are plenty of countries that do have MD programs that the United States recognizes, like Canada for instance.

Are there any other countries besides Canada in that list? As far as I know, Canada- and US-educated doctors can practice anywhere in Canada or the US. Everyone else has to be "re-certified," which includes doing a residency in Canada or US. It is very competitive to get a residency placement. The results is that if you have not done a residency in the US or Canada, the rule of thumb is that it takes 10 years to get licensed to practice and you have a 10% chance of success.

In other words, the problem is not that licensing boards don't accept degrees from other countries, but that they don't accept residencies. And getting a residency spot is so competitive and such a long shot that few people can successfully do it.

I fully agree with the US decision. I want my MDs to pass some baseline aptitude set by US regulation and if a governing board decides a country cannot meet that then those doctors need to re-apply.

This applies to technology as well: I want the people writing code that will be deployed in $CRITICAL_SITUATION to pass some baseline aptitude test set by US regulation, ideally with some ethics component. Unfortunately, no such thing exists in software and there's a surprising pushback.

It sort of exists. P.E. Software engineering like most of the other engineering branches use. Signing off on designs that require regulatory approval often requires a PE. In my first job in mechanical design etc. it was understood that I would get this as soon as I could.

However my understanding is that almost no one gets this in software and it’s being discontinued.

In what country? I have heard that this is required in Canada, but I've never heard of it in the US.

US. It's so uncommon though (in software engineering specifically) that they're apparently dropping it.

They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them.

That's because residency programs are completely messed up.

But this is just one of the many reasons for why medical care is so expensive in the US.

Why? US health care is proven to be inferior to that of many European countries.

I suspect the reason that AMA limit access to US markets for foreign trained doctors is because limiting the supply of doctors in the US would likely increase the average salary for current US doctors.

Because it sets baseline standards. Yes, I think everyone knows the US does not have the best healthcare in the world. But I also think it's 100% appropriate to say if you want to practice medicine in this country then you must meet our standards. Just like a drivers license might not be valid in any country you visit outside your own.

> How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US [...]

I have zero problem with this. If I was a doctor on the US and moved outside of it I'd expect to requalify there. Different areas have different levels required and just because you've met the levels required in one area doesn't mean you've met them in another.

> They don’t just need to re-do the testing; they need to waste six years and another $300k of tuition to learn things they already know, before anyone will be willing to test them.

That's your actual concern. I don't think you want to get rid of requalification, just make the process quicker and less expensive. Advocate for this, then.

Interesting. I also do not have a degree, and I'm pursing my associates part time while working full-time as a Junior Dev. However every job interview I've had people bring up my education, and it seems to always be the deal breaker for them. Despite the fact that I know in my personal work, I'm more capable than most of the people with their Bachelors in CS.

I feel like a lot of companies hiring software devs just filter out most of the resumes that don't mention having a Bachelors degree, simply because they can.

Your résumé is a marketing document. You don't have to put anything about your education on there if you have other stuff worth mentioning, like work experience and personal projects. This may increase your hit rate.

I had an argument with one guy who would fire you for "lying in an interview" if you didn't tell him you had a degree, or list it on your resume. His position was that people with degrees would work for him until a better job came along and then just move along, wasting his time "training" them. (Basic laboring work.)

He didn't understand that he was just hiring the lowest common denominator because he wouldn't run a workplace that people wanted to stay in. I've long wondered how many exceptional people he's cast off because they didn't fit his employment profile of "no hope, minimum wage."

That sounds like a good person to avoid working with at all costs.

Just start talking about what you've done, don't let the education become a sticking point. Especially when you're starting out, people ask about education because they don't know what else to ask about. Make sure your resume lists actual points of interest, and IMO, leave "education" off if you don't have something impressive to put in there. A lot of interviewers essentially just read your resume back to you and ask you to expand.

>Ultimately I think there are a lot of industries that a degree requirement is a good thing (I really want my doctor to actually have an MD), a lot of industries where certification is sufficient .

Why only Doctors? Because human lives are involved? I assume by the same logic, Civil Engineers also need to have a degree (they build bridges and other life critical infrastructure)

There may be thousands of software products that are also life critical. Not just the obvious ones like some medical hardware control program/firmware, Air traffic control programs, Flight onboard software Self-driving car auto-pilot software etc. So I assume those would require a qualified software engineer with a degree.

But there may even be others that may not be so obvious immediately.

I have a degree and not been on the other side (not having a degree) and so cannot identify with any injustice that is perceived by folks on other side. I can certainly see somewhat equivalent when it comes to bachelors degree vs Masters/PHD as I don't have those. So I am not sure where the lines should be drawn to make it fair to everyone.

Ha! Brings back memories. When I was an engineering student at UIUC, I was taking a physics class where the Prof graded crazy hard, even by the standards of the department.

His response was "one day you might build a bridge and can kill someone."

i'm sure he wasn't intending to give you an exhaustive list

I guess I spoke too broadly in this case. The primary I see isn't an MD, they are a PA-C. But I know that they're consulting with an MD behind the scenes as necessary.

I'm not exactly sure where I draw the line, and for me it's a lot of "I know it when I see it". I'm not suggesting any specific code here, just pointing out that there are positions all over the spectrum. I find the fact that a CID (Certified Interior Decorator) is a thing is absurd.

Maybe my requirement is that someone with an appropriate level is in the chain somewhere.

Because, of course, your experiences are universal to all of humanity.

My own personal anecdotal evidence is contrary; I had to get a college degree before anyone would give me so much as a callback (and the one time I got more than that, it ended with a pathetic offer - with the justification given that "You don't have a college degree"). All of this despite having years of proven open source contributions.

> All of this despite having years of proven open source contributions.

I wonder how experience in open source maps to professional experience. My impression is that employers seem to value professional experience much more.

I've had a similar experience to you in terms of not having a college degree, but after I worked for a few years employers stopped caring.

I think it's fairly obvious that I didn't mean this situation would apply to everyone, I just wanted to supply another view/data-point.

Out of curiosity, what does your github look like? I know you said you have a lot of open source contributions, but what about personal projects on your github?

Before I earned my degree, I had countless interviewers tell me that they wouldn't consider me until I had one, in spite of my "not insignificant" experience and interest in the field. (It was sysadmin at the time.)

So I got my degree. Suddenly, the interviewers - some of them the same as before - changed their positions to not considering me in spite of having the qualifications, but because I had no experience.

So before it was experience but no degree, then it was degree but no experience. It's been about eight years since I gave up trying to find work appropriate to my training.

I'm interesting in hearing about your education background, your current field and your general location, if you don't mind sharing.

What was your first job (or first job on which most candidates had a degree)? How did you demonstrate domain specific abilities? Why did you leave?

Software engineers are unlike almost any other advanced technical field, as in there is so much demand and so much change in the field that degrees aren't as important. After a few years of experience, that's what matters more. But i bet that first job is hard to get.

If, instead of using the metric getting a job as a Software Engineer, you used building and deploying quality software in a timely and cost-effective manner, then a CS and/or SE degree may be very important.

> building and deploying quality software in a timely and cost-effective manner, then a CS and/or SE degree may be very important

I've yet to see a correlation between the two.

When I worked in IT, I noticed a correlation between the absence of each. Those who get jobs as programmers without prior study and/or training tend to be more likely to slip up on quality delivered, deadlines met, and/or resources used. Of course, measuring those things is tricky. Some programmers ship software full of bugs so they can make more money fixing it up later, which is charged to some other account in the company.

This is the reason I chose a community college with a high job placement record. I had a job right after graduation and gained experience working instead of wasting an extra 2 years in college. Plus, an associates degree costs significantly less than a bachelors.

I can't honestly think that anyone cares that I got a degree in 1996. For my current job he was more concerned about my AWS certs....

Yeah, but software engineering isn't the only profession out there.

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