Comment by johngalt | Hacker News Reader

Comment by johngalt | Hacker News Reader

The following is stated with total compassion not criticism.

This reminds me of the fine grained steps that non-technical people will write down when handling computer tasks. Every click and every menu mentioned. Even down to describing what the icons look like. Then each step will be followed with exacting caution. The interaction never becomes comfortable or natural. Instead it stutters along from one step to the next. Like counting off steps when dancing.

Whereas a skilled user will intuitively understand the UI cues. Even in an unfamiliar situation, where they don't know what menu or setting they need, they will move around trying things just to see what happens. The difference between skilled and unskilled is not planning, or knowing an ever larger number of correct steps. It's about a knowledge of the basics and a feeling of safety in taking risks.

When I read this post I see someone not comfortable enough in their own skin. Perhaps flagging people and making battle plans will help get him started, but imho the goal should be to gain a level of comfort that you can act without careful planning. That will allow you to avoid being 'stun locked'.

The path to being skilled might need a hefty dose of 'careful battle plans', especially for people who lack a certain intuitive ability to figure this out by trying.

I can't speak for everyone, but looking at my progress in this area, it wasn't enough to just take risks and understanding the basics. They were crucial elements, I do agree with you on that, but trying to not be methodical did not help. I needed both, and still do. I have lists for even very simple interactions that really should be 'natural' by now. It took me more than a decade to realize and accept that this is the only thing that works for me.

It's a bit like a tone-deaf person learning a musical instrument. Through immense effort and 'fine-grained, mechanical learning' they might actually get pretty good, but they're still tone-deaf, and might never become as 'fluent' as others. If you're that type of person, the approach you describe can be frustrating and relatively ineffective.

That said, I do think your advice applies very much to most people, and to some degree to all people :). I suppose finding a skilled teacher than can help you figure out what works for you is crucial in this regard.

> It's a bit like a tone-deaf person learning a musical instrument. Through immense effort and 'fine-grained, mechanical learning' they might actually get pretty good, but they're still tone-deaf, and might never become as 'fluent' as others. If you're that type of person, the approach you describe can be frustrating and relatively ineffective.

I can now reliably beat the puzzle in Myst that involves a piano and a set of sliders now, and it only takes me 15 or so minutes when it takes normal people about 30 seconds.

(I go back and play every 3-5 years because I enjoy the crazy storyline)

I totally agree with you. I've seen this in people before and honestly would like to understand more.

I have a friend who is very analytical but gets flustered by many social situations and conflicts. When I ask him what's going on he explains he doesn't understand how to act or what's going on. I've no idea how to help. I've developed instincts, through experience, rather than calculated responses. My instincts can be off and need adjustment over time but it's a totally different way of reacting. Much less taxing on me emotionally than what he goes through. I don't need to think I just need to practise. But this doesn't seem to work for some people and I have no idea why?

I remember in my late teens and early twenties experiencing this but I just grew out of it. How do you help someone develop interpersonal skills and instincts?

Yoga and ballroom dancing, especially Tango, are two ways that helped me get out of my mind and tune into my body/emotions/instincts more.

Social anxiety is a real condition, and works at a subconscious level. In a state of anxiety, the brain simply does not work optimally.

I deal with it on occasion, even though I'm normally 100% perfectly fine with strangers, groups, etc... But, when I speak in public, and especially when the focus is on me... It's so rough. No amount of practice, conditioning, preparedness does any good when you try to talk and _literally_ nothing comes out. I've found myself having to force speech and it _sounds_ forced in my head. I've never had the presence of mind to ask a friend or colleague what it sounds like to them, I'll have to try to remember to do that next time. I've just always kind of dealt with it because it only happens infrequently that I'm in those situations (1-2 times a year, maybe).

That sounds normal to me. Getting over anxiety requires exposure and most people aren't doing a lot of public speaking on a regular basis. Toastmasters could help with that if it really bothers you.

If you want to help him, there's something you can do: Try to practice with him those situations in which he struggles. Start with simple scenarios where you pretend to be someone else and give him feedback about what was weird, when you realized he was blocked, etc. All of this without criticizing or judging him. This way you create a safe environment for him to practice without feeling the pressure of a real conversation and with enough time to understand his own interactions and assimilate them.

> Instead it stutters along from one step to the next. Like counting off steps when dancing.

My dance instructor, a master dancer, said that for dancing the key is you need a MAP: 1. Memorize 2. Automate 3. Personalize

Memorize the steps and commit them to memory. Then automate them so you can do them without thinking. Then personalize and add your own flourishes.

It’s a matter of mastery and practice. This is true both for dancing and for dealing with emotionally charged situations, and for pretty much anything that you haven’t yet mastered.

The path to intuitive understanding goes through written/memorized steps when you are starting from nothing. The intuition is effectively accumulation of enough knowledge and confidence.

And also by one gets frustrated with developers that think they can change the "paradigm" because the existing one is "boring" or "inefficient".

On the other hand I have found it immensely useful to form a habit of refusing to respond to accusations, demands and threats immediately. Instead I (try to) listen, maybe even ask some questions, retreat and then respond. This did not develop intuitively like mastery of computer UIs – it required retrospecting on certain situations many times over and promising myself on how I will act in similar situation in future.

This sounds like (one component of) non-violent communication [1]. I myself found that reading about NVC quite enriched my perception of interaction with people. It provided me with some more concepts and framework to understand what is happening while also giving me more options for responding.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

I highly encourage the book it is based on. It is gold:

https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Lif...

It is one of those compact books that are quite effective. Other books are a bit heavy and you almost feel like you have to memorize flow charts. This book is fairly formulaic, but with easy to remember formulas. A lot of the book may seem a little too soft/touchy, but fortunately when I read it I was reading other books that go into the details of the psychology behind communications (which this one doesn't), and there is a lot to back up the advice in the book.

Mind you, if this isn't your default style of communication, it will take a lot of practice (and perhaps years) to get there. I think for me it was about a year of trying before my first successful use of it in a hostile conversation. It's hard to stick to trying something if you don't see signs of success inside of a year.

I can understand where this is coming from tbf, I used to be the same. I was lucky though, with life and experience and such, the social interaction side became more natural and fluent, and getting interrupted by whatever reason doesn't produce the same response anymore.

Mind you, what I do that requires focus isn't the most exciting or difficult thing anymore either, so that might also be a factor.

Third, I work in much less dickish environment. Nobody will come up at you and start yelling, that's just unprofessional. With that in mind, I don't know what I'd do if that were to happen. Depends on the situation / reason / person / etc.

I don't think this is true. Your brain is probably quite different to mine and to your neighbors. Brains are different to each other.

My brain is easily overwhelmed, it's highly sensitive. This means I cannot respond fluidly in stressful situations.

Having a highly sensitive nervous system means that you can pick up on subtle detail easily. But it also means that too much stimulation really effects your ability to process.

This sensitivity is a deep trait, it's down in the biology. You can't think your way out of it, you can't overcome it. It's a deep deep part of a person and someone without sensitivity can have a hard time understanding what it is like - and this is where your answer comes from.

You do not understand what it is like to live with high sensitivity. It is both a blessing and a curse.

I am highly sensitive. This means I am highly emotional, highly creative, very intuitive - I read people easily. But it also means I can't endure busy environments: crowds, large meetings, rock concerts, sporting events. Not without consequences: confusion, tiredness, stress, etc.

We are different creatures, you and I. But that does not make us better or worse, just different, that's all. We should learn to respect each other for our shortcomings and our strengths.

https://www.psychologies.co.uk/self/revenge-of-the-introvert...

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