Comment by John_KZ | Hacker News Reader

Comment by John_KZ | Hacker News Reader

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But this is done through court orders and a due process, correct? On repeated offenders, for the benefit of themselves too?

What's described in the article isn't the same. You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. You also shouldn't ostracize those people from society. If they committed a crime, enforce the punishment. Is it a fine? Jail time? Withholding a portion future wages? Do so. Shaming has no place in modern society.

The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. How are they going to earn money and repay their debts if they are denied transportation (amongst "many" other things)? And finally, shouldn't we be shaming the financial institution for loaning money to individuals without any legal guarantees and no collateral? Aren't they the ones that should manage this risk? Aren't they the ones reaping benefits for this?

This is a very dangerous game to play. And I certainly don't like bunching up those who owe millions and can afford to pay back, and those who owe hundreds and are probably living in poverty. Keep the shaming for public figures, not private individuals.

> You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will.

This is done by local courts, not the financial institutions.

And if you read related article on this kind of name and shame tactic, you find that it is designed for debtors who are capable of repaying their debts but choose to defy court orders. Hence the travel restrictions are for flights and high-speed trains, and not regular trains or other public transports.

from http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-de...

"Restrictions are placed on "high-expenditure consumption" and "consumption not necessary to sustain normal life or businesses" for individual defaulters as well as the legal representatives and CEOs of companies that default."

Surprisingly progressive. This is because they don't have debtors prison?

Now that could work. White-collar offenders in the US could be placed on the "no-fly list", and denied landing rights for private jets. They could still drive, take trains, or go by ship.

The main benefit of shaming is to satisfy the savage craving in those witnessing the shaming to feel morally superior to the humiliated party.

In that sense, it "works". Other citizens see the shamed party and feel security knowing that there is someone lower than them in the social hierarchy. "It is not enough to win -- others must lose."

When rehabilitation or deterrence is the actual rather than the ostensible goal, more effective methods will be chosen.

I'm glad you pointed this out. One can extend the theory to include the psychology of narcissism, in which the narcissist spreads their shame to others.

As Aldous Huxley said.

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"

"The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. "

How is that possible? You walk up, ask for a ticket to $wherever, pay the cash, and leave.

Not in China! In China you typically need to present ID for all travellers to buy a ticket, at least on the new high speed services that are mentioned in the article. When I was there 15 years ago you needed ID for all regional services, though that could be because I was travelling in to Shanghai.

Are tickets named, or could you get a friend to buy?

Only trains I've taken in China is to/from Beijing airport, and the metro

Tickets are named and have a record of your ID number (national ID card or, for foreigners, passport). On the train, the ticket inspector checks that the details match, and that your face matches that on the ID document.

This doesn't apply to metro services (like the Beijing subway or the Beijing airport express that you mention).

Geezus. Russia used to have internal passports/travel permits, this smells like something similar but implemented through the rail network, it wouldn't be hard to implement a "house arrest" by disallowing ticket sales to some people.

I guess they can still hop in a car to travel. Requiring ID also makes surveillance of people's movements, although I guess monitoring your SIM card is more effective.

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