Debtors in China Shamed on Highway Billboard Featuring Their Faces and Names | Hacker News Reader

Debtors in China Shamed on Highway Billboard Featuring Their Faces and Names

scmp.com

102 pointsanw67 comments

This is at least better than the revenge porn shaming scheme (“naked loan”) that went around a few years ago. https://medium.com/@arcbering/naked-loan-a-loan-for-porn-sch... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161031/10125635924/chine... https://www.whatsonweibo.com/nude-pics-naked-loan-controvers...

Wow, that's bad. And judging by the dates on some of those articles this is not just something that was happening a few years ago. It looks like the law came down on this mid last year.

It felt like a few years ago to me at least :). The western press can be really delayed in reporting on these things.

That wasn't government sponsored, while this one is.

Libertarians will say this is ok

Why would they? What happens here clearly falls under the umbrella of revenge porn, which is illegal in the US.

Wow ... if you scroll down (on mobile) and keep reading the articles there, it’s just an endless list of “really bad stuff happening in China.” To the extent that I had to look up whether SCMP is some kind of American propaganda outfit. And ... from what I can tell it seems to be heavily influenced by the Chinese govt. Can someone with more insight offer a quick rundown of how SCMP fits into Chinese media?

> it’s just an endless list of “really bad stuff happening in China.”

It's not necessarily inaccurate. I lived in China for a few years and still try to keep up with news about China, and it really seems to me like one worrisome thing after another.

SCMP is a prestigious newspaper and the “newspaper of record” for Hong Kong.

However, recently it was bought out by Alibaba, which is of course a Chinese company. The articles still don’t seem that much pro-Chinese, however this does have some sinister overtones for the future, and fits in well with the Chinese strategy of steady expansion / soft subtle influence of foreign govs and institutes.

as long as they keep publishing nominally critical articles, they can also pick and choose among the available news stories and over time start burying the worst and even becoming a propaganda arm. "look even the SCMP says things are getting better, and they're the critical ones"

SCMP has hired a few former Straits Times journalists with an ax to grind with Singapore, and the articles they churn out have a decidedly anti-Singapore, pro-China bias. The messaging became more strident ever since it got bought by Alibaba.

Although the Chinese government occasionally manages to exert its influence to prevent particularly inconvenient reporting, the SCMP is still a mostly independent outlet similar to newspapers in the West. Consequently, the SCMP website is blocked by the Great Firewall so that Mainlanders can't easily read anything critical of their government.

>SCMP website is blocked

scmp.com is no longer blocked in China. This is likely due to content changes as a result of their purchase by Alibaba.

>mostly independent

SCMP is known to water-down and remove stories critical of China and its leadership. Jack Ma acquired SCMP to promote positive news of China abroad. See this Nytimes article [0].

>In effect, Alibaba has taken Hong Kong’s English-language paper of record since the days of British rule and put it on the leading edge of China’s efforts to project soft power abroad. Every day, The Post churns out dozens of articles about China, many of which seek to present a more positive view of the country. As it does, critics say it is moving away from independent journalism and pioneering a new form of propaganda.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/31/world/asia/south-china-mo...

I don't think this is necessarily perceived as bad publicity or anti-mainland propaganda. This can easily be perceived as PSA "listen, in china laws are draconian, deal with it."

Another thing is that some stuff that Americans consider dystopian are seen as good by PRC citizens; for example thieves getting apprehended by leveraging ubiquitous cameras and facial recognition, getting train discounts for not knowing people banned from wechat etc. My guess is all the nutty stuff that went down in the mid 20th century makes "stability" much more attractive

It's difficult to gauge how well-liked a policy is when you're in a country that very plainly has no free speech. To see why, imagine what would get posted to Facebook if you got a free ice cream cone for expressing support of the free ice cream Facebook posting law. (I.e. even people who didn't support it would pretend to in order to "get theirs.")

SCMP was founded as a pro-british propaganda newspaper in the early 20th century and has pretty much remained so while switching owners ( rupert murdoch then robert kuok ). SCMP's claim to fame is coining and popularing the propaganda term "Rape of Nanking" during ww2 when the japanese invaded british/western interests in nanking.

It was bought out by Jack Ma in 2016. Jack Ma is the founder of Alibaba and it is rumored that he maintains close ties to the chinese government/party.

It is assumed that SCMP will be the english language pro-beijing propaganda arm going forward.

The Master said: "If the people be led by laws, and uniformity sought to be given them by punishments, they will try to avoid the punishment, but have no sense of shame. If they be led by virtue, and uniformity sought to be given them by the rules of propriety, they will have the sense of shame, and moreover will become good."

- Analects of Confucius, book II

I am glad western civilization invented internal guilt instead of external shame.

External shame is quite prevalent in western civilization, especially with regards to sexuality.

Shame is the default; society evolved past "appearance", "crab mentality", "averageness", "complacency", "argument from authority" and provided a consistent framework allowing a single individual to stand against the whole society based on internal moral grounds.

Internal guilt doesn't work with sociopaths and companies.

I consider them as hackers; they simply hacked societal rules for their benefit, silently observing what worked and what didn't. Permanent surveillance is one of major threats to them, so that's one of the reasons they try to get to the top of tech companies, to be the ruling technocrats instead of tracked majority. We don't have much time to stop them.

It doesn't work for many people who think 'there's no victim', or 'the victim can afford it'

Lets say you board a train at an unmanned station with no ticket machine. Nobody checks your ticket. You then get out at a manned station, but can just walk off.

Do you buy a ticket? Many who don't will think "I don't need to", not "I just broke the law" or "I just committed a crime"

How about you instead also get off at an unmanned station. How many people will seek out a way to pay their fare?

You don't have to be a sociopath to not feel guilty.

This is mostly lost in translation. The original quote has nothing to do with external shame.

Shaming works.

In Ontario, Canada DUI offenders must install a Ignition Interlock Program. Which is basically a breathalyzer that the driver must blow in to start the car.

And if that is not shameful enough, there’s another shameful add-on: an red/amber light the offender must install on the front bumper, dead center. The light activates if you fail the the test after you were driving for a bit.

But the light doesn’t need to be turned on to shame. It’s very obvious that it’s there, even when it’s off.

But this is done through court orders and a due process, correct? On repeated offenders, for the benefit of themselves too?

What's described in the article isn't the same. You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will. You also shouldn't ostracize those people from society. If they committed a crime, enforce the punishment. Is it a fine? Jail time? Withholding a portion future wages? Do so. Shaming has no place in modern society.

The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. How are they going to earn money and repay their debts if they are denied transportation (amongst "many" other things)? And finally, shouldn't we be shaming the financial institution for loaning money to individuals without any legal guarantees and no collateral? Aren't they the ones that should manage this risk? Aren't they the ones reaping benefits for this?

This is a very dangerous game to play. And I certainly don't like bunching up those who owe millions and can afford to pay back, and those who owe hundreds and are probably living in poverty. Keep the shaming for public figures, not private individuals.

The main benefit of shaming is to satisfy the savage craving in those witnessing the shaming to feel morally superior to the humiliated party.

In that sense, it "works". Other citizens see the shamed party and feel security knowing that there is someone lower than them in the social hierarchy. "It is not enough to win -- others must lose."

When rehabilitation or deterrence is the actual rather than the ostensible goal, more effective methods will be chosen.

I'm glad you pointed this out. One can extend the theory to include the psychology of narcissism, in which the narcissist spreads their shame to others.

As Aldous Huxley said.

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …"

> You shouldn't let financial institutions using this kind of coercion at will.

This is done by local courts, not the financial institutions.

And if you read related article on this kind of name and shame tactic, you find that it is designed for debtors who are capable of repaying their debts but choose to defy court orders. Hence the travel restrictions are for flights and high-speed trains, and not regular trains or other public transports.

from http://uk.businessinsider.com/chinas-tax-blacklist-shames-de...

"Restrictions are placed on "high-expenditure consumption" and "consumption not necessary to sustain normal life or businesses" for individual defaulters as well as the legal representatives and CEOs of companies that default."

Surprisingly progressive. This is because they don't have debtors prison?

Now that could work. White-collar offenders in the US could be placed on the "no-fly list", and denied landing rights for private jets. They could still drive, take trains, or go by ship.

"The article also mentions they're not allowed to buy train tickets. "

How is that possible? You walk up, ask for a ticket to $wherever, pay the cash, and leave.

Not in China! In China you typically need to present ID for all travellers to buy a ticket, at least on the new high speed services that are mentioned in the article. When I was there 15 years ago you needed ID for all regional services, though that could be because I was travelling in to Shanghai.

Are tickets named, or could you get a friend to buy?

Only trains I've taken in China is to/from Beijing airport, and the metro

Tickets are named and have a record of your ID number (national ID card or, for foreigners, passport). On the train, the ticket inspector checks that the details match, and that your face matches that on the ID document.

This doesn't apply to metro services (like the Beijing subway or the Beijing airport express that you mention).

Geezus. Russia used to have internal passports/travel permits, this smells like something similar but implemented through the rail network, it wouldn't be hard to implement a "house arrest" by disallowing ticket sales to some people.

I guess they can still hop in a car to travel. Requiring ID also makes surveillance of people's movements, although I guess monitoring your SIM card is more effective.

Very common around where I am to see shops post names and dollar amounts of bad checks people have written.

In Minnesota (and maybe a couple other states) DUI offenders are given a special license plate for their car. They're easily identifiable by their plain white background and the fact that every one of these plates starts with the letter 'W', which gives them the name "whiskey plates".

Police officers in Minnesota used to be able to pull over any whiskey plate car without needing any reason to do so, which was eventually found to be unconstitutional by the state supreme court.

http://www.careydwidefense.com/MN-Whiskey-Plates.html

Is that a lifetime sentence for DUI? Or does it 'time out'?

How long are typical bans?

This provides a lot of details:

http://www.dwiguys.com/whiskey-plates/

That's interesting. Only the most egregious offences, and it only lasts 1 year (presumably that's 1 year after your driving ban expires - not concurrently).

However it looks like to me (and this is hilarious if I've interpreted it correctly), if you're in a rental and get a DUI, the rental firm gets the plates?

That sounds great (ok not the light on the front which sounds like a hazard for pedestrians). I'd love to know if I was over the limit or not before getting in the car if I'd had a beer at lunch, or had several the night before.

There's like 12 lights on the front of a car, what makes this one a hazard?

Is it integrated into the bodywork? I was imagining it was just stuck on as a petruding device, it makes a low speed collision the difference between a broken bone and your guts spilling out over the road.

Why does it sound "great"? There's nothing in the original post to support the assertion that "shaming works". This is the question we need to ask:

Are the shaming aspects of this policy effective at preventing drunk driving?

All I see is the humiliation of a public branding. That's "effective" in the sense that "tough on crime" political demagogues can use it to win votes from the brutalized electorate. But shouldn't an engineering community like ours have higher aspirations?

For instance, there is an actual solution to drunk driving on the horizon: self-driving cars.

I don't want to drive drunk

Therefore I would be quite happy to have something built in my car that checks I'm not drunk before I turn on the engine

I'd be even more happy in the very hypothetical case where I'm willing to drive drunk (say a volcano had just erupted) and all it would do is light up a warning light

(that said I know when I've had too much to drink -- like now at 2300 after a succefull 12 hour day, and wouldn't drive, it's when I'm in that 'I don't know if I'm impared state', that's where the breathalyser comes in helpful, so there's no need in my case to do anything with the results other than present them to me)

> Therefore I would be quite happy to have something built in my car that checks I'm not drunk before I turn on the engine

If that's truly the case, it's trivial to get a voluntary interlock ignition device installed on your car. You'd most likely save on the cost since there is no government mandated reporting.

That said, I'd recommend not driving at all if you know in advance that you are going to be drinking. At least in metropolitan areas, there are far too many mostly affordable and convenient options IMO to risk it. Even a couple of drinks for a 180+lb person is going to cause impairment.

I was thinking mainly when I'd had a bottle of wine the night before, what time am I clear the next morning

Eventually it'll get to where Philip K Dick had it in Lies Inc, where a drone announcer will stalk you about, informing everyone around you of your current finances

I don't see how this is much different than the deadbeat dad billboards and public shaming that we use in the U.S. [1]

They get results: "the first billboards were so successful that another round of the roadside placards are being unveiled this week"

In the deadbeat dad cases the government is working for the best interests of children and women, but if you extrapolate this to a general law and order theme, then why not publicly shame all unrepentant debtors? [2]

[1] https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/billboards-helped-in-arrest-... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/deadbeat-dad-tweets-...

I can see this triggering an inflection point in Chinese debt accumulation (if it hasn't happened already). Considering the insanely high debt to GDP ratio in China, it looks like they're in for a massive recession.

Got source for your claim?

A source for my speculation? No.

A source for the high debt to GDP ratio? A simple Google search would suffice, but here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/sizing-up...

Bloomberg claim 256% debt:gdp ratio, but it's hard to collaberate. China doesn't appear on Business Insiders list from 2015 [0], which has Japan at 250%ish. Trading economics [1] has China at 48% government debt:gdp

Household debt isn't that bad either, however the grauniad has the answer -- corporate debt is sky-high [2]. It also mentions that by this measure (Corporate + household + government debt), the U.S. is 331%. It's an interesting article, albeit from 2 years ago

[0] http://uk.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-highest-lev...

[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/china/government-debt-to-gdp

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/16/chinas-debt...

Households Debt in China increased to 48 percent of GDP in the third quarter of 2017 from 46.90 percent of GDP in the second quarter of 2017 [0]

From the same source Households Debt in Germany remained unchanged at 53.10 percent of GDP in the third quarter of 2017 from 53.10 percent of GDP in the second quarter of 2017

Households Debt in Japan decreased to 57.10 percent of GDP

Households Debt in the United States increased to 78.50 percent of GDP

Households Debt in the United Kingdom decreased to 86.50 percent of GDP

Households Debt in Denmark decreased to 116.80 percent of GDP

[0] https://tradingeconomics.com/china/households-debt-to-gdp

They also try to shame people for jay walking. Surprised at how shaming works so well in Asia.

Where in China does this happen?

I saw it on a VICE news episode recently. They showcased these AI/Machine Learning companies using street cameras to detect jay-walkers and then shame them by displaying them on a big screen as they are doing it.

That would be great if corrupted politicians could be shamed on Billboards too

does anyone know what's the average or range of interest rates in China? Looks like banks are getting help from the state to collect. Help, well above and beyond traditional court /sheriff duties.

What a dystopia China is.....you can't say winnie the pooh. when you send a text message or post to wechat about winnie the pooh, it gets censored immediately. You have a deranged social credit score that prevents you from buying a house, riding a train, or leaving the country if you said winnie the pooh before. There are cameras tracking your every move in public. Most Chinese movies/tv shows you can watch have a 'china is great' and 'US/Japan is evil' motiv.

Oh and pollution is suffocating, there are days when you can barely see the sky, there are way too many people everywhere, ghost buildings and cities, you know the food and water are tainted, and your leader/dictator does look like winnie the pooh.

We've banned this account for using HN primarily for national battle, which breaks the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

How common is this sort of behavior on HN?

Less common than the ideology wars, but I wouldn't call it rare.

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