Comment by throwaway010718 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by throwaway010718 | Hacker News Reader

throwaway010718

As an electrical engineer with a traditional work-ethic, I always felt cursed that my only brother was a Bohemian/artist. Then my brother asked me to join him on a trip to Burning Man and I reluctantly agreed.

Not knowing what to expect, my brother privately took care of everything. He created several costumes so we could wear something different every day. He decorated our bicycles and designed elaborate canopies. He made drug laced snacks for barter and created games we could play in darkness of the desert night. Upon my arrival, he made me feel welcome despite my immediate realization that I was not worthy of attending this event. For I had contributed nothing. I had, for the first time in my life, felt like dead-weight to society. But instead of judging me, my brother made me feel loved.

Going to Burning Man is truly a humbling experience. The unimaginable massive spectacles of creativity are beyond my ability to describe. As much as we would like to return we both agreed we wouldn't unless we had an installation to exhibit. A fitting mission a for sibling artist-engineering team who feel obliged to give back to an event that gave them so much.

RIP Larry. I hope somehow in death you feel all the love and beauty that Burning Man inspired.

While the Burning Man experience had been one of the unforgettable for me, I'd spent at least a day there forced to think about economics of it all. The ticket to BM cost big money for most people ($450 + $80 vehicle pass). For example, right now the tickets are priced at $1200 per person at the official website. This is a significant revenues for the organizers with 50,000 attendees. I couldn't wonder but thinking why cost is so high? There is virtually no services provided by the organizers except for portable potties (which BTW stinks all over and is perhaps the biggest factor in ruining the whole experience). Almost all of the labor and even lot of material is provided by largely unpaid volunteers. I understand there is grants made to many artists, but still I'm not sure if some organizers have probably created this whole scheme to make a living out of this. There is not much of an explanation on why tickets are so pricey while number of attendees have kept increasing every year while the costs should have almost remained more or less same because of lack of services.

I was also surprised that while folks are encouraged to give and take gifts and keep the whole thing free of cash, there is indeed commercial establishment to serve coffee. Why can't it be made free? A cup of coffee costs less than $1 to make (especially when you have volunteer labor). Even if a person drinks 5 cups a day, 5 times a week - it's still $25. For a ticket that costs $400+ isn't that doable that would allow to make the event truly cashless and keep the spirit of the event?

I believe most of the money goes to the Bureau of Land Management, and all the equipment they have to rent for set up, security, and clean up (most at the behest of said Bureau).

Looks like Burning Man pays about $2M to BLM for the event out of their revenues of $12M. So it's like 20% of revenue, not "most" of the revenue. Also, much of the cleaning, setup etc is done by volunteers if I understand correctly.

In 2016, BRC paid BLM $2,199,959 to cover the costs of staffing the weeklong arts and lifestyle festival, which also has a set-up, breakdown, and cleanup schedule lasting more than two months. When all stages of the 2016 event were complete, including post-event inspection, the BLM had spent $2,166,127.41 on the event, leaving BRC with a refund of $33,831.59.

https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-b...

no need to speculate, the financials are publicly reported: https://annualreport2016.burningman.org/financial-report/

edit: here is a breakdown of expenses from 2016: https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/

For longest time BRC never released salaries of their ranking staff despite of pressure. In their yearly breakdown it can be clearly be seen that "payroll" and "management" is the overwhelmingly biggest component. It should also be noted that revenues have continued to increase massively year or year while cost of the services listed have remained more or less minor bleep on the balance sheet. For an organization with $35M in revenue in just a week and that everyone expects to be open and transparent, there is not much to be said.

take a look at page 7. https://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...

That doesn't have any more information. BRC has only agreed to disclose the pay for Jennifer Raiser because according to non-profit rules they had to disclose pay of at least one main person. She is treasurer making $111K. Not bad for a employee organizing once a year single week event, especially when the organizers asks everyone else to be volunteer. I've been part of several non-profits where treasurers were volunteers and got paid exactly $0 for year around activities.

Despite of constant asks over the years, BRC has not agreed to breakdown their "payroll" category of expenses which is left to imagination for what goes to temporary staff vs BRC people. These secrets I would least expect from great non-profits let alone from Burning Man founders.

I see 26 individuals listed with salaries totaling $2,392,870. 9 board members are unpaid.

The highest paid employee not designated as "key" made $141,290.

I've been part of several non-profits where treasurers were volunteers and got paid exactly $0 for year around activities.

Were they responsible for (your numbers) $60MM/yr?

Maybe the burning man people are overpayed, but being the treasurer of an organization that, as you say, deals with 35 million dollars every year sounds like a full time all year round position to me, regardless of when or how the money is made.

> but being the treasurer of an organization

That's immaterial to the discussion. The point is that management rakes in the lion's share of a $35M revenue made largely at the expense of people paying well over $1k to attend an event which is sold as non-profit, non-capitalist and volunteer-only. Naturally, people need to get paid for the job they do, and organizer's do have the right and even obligation to profit from their initiatives, but questions do pop out regarding the ethical implications of doing so under what appear to be false pretenses.

Great point sir. I am interested in being a full time treasurer as well, will you give me $35mm/year? I will devote my full time to managing it

Don't be ridiculous, the treasurer doesn't make $35mm/year.

Not with that attitude

The work load here isn’t proportional to revenue, it’s proportional to services provided by the organizers - which is extraordinarily minimum. The revenue simply drops in via website that is active only few days a year. I absolutely disagree that any person involved for Burning Man should be full time employee of any kind. I would also not expect any sort of “executives” let alone paid folks for Burning Man when the entire premise of event rests on volunteering. Do you think no one with great qualifications in the world is willing to be volunteer to make a website for Burning Man or be a treasurer for the event?

> Do you think no one with great qualifications in the world is willing to be volunteer to make a website for Burning Man or be a treasurer for the event?

I honestly don't know. What I do know is that if I was in charge of selecting a treasurer to manage $35M I would definitely prefer it to be a paid position, especially if the money all comes in and goes out in a short timespan. I might trust volunteers with trash pickup, but this is 35 million bucks.

If I go to burning man with 70000 other people then $1.59 of my ticket price is going to pay this lady, that's less than a single cup of dusty coffee or a bag of ice! I'm okay with that. Handling 35 million dollars in a year sounds like a daunting task, doing it in a week sounds downright insane, I don't think it's unreasonable to pay someone a living wage to do this job. I also hope the people driving around sucking shit out of the porta potties are getting paid and I would not like to see that be a volunteer position.

Like I said, I have no idea if the other administrators of burning man are overpayed, but I do suspect running an event of this scale is much closer to a year-round job than you surmise, and in the real world being "radically self reliant" usually means maintaining an actual paying job somewhere.

Not bad for a employee organizing once a year single week event

This is flatly, obviously, knowably wrong. Burning Man organizes dozens of events all around the world year-round.

No it doesn't. The Burning Man Project has virtually nothing to do with the regional burns around the world, which is a sore point for a lot of regional organizers. They ask that the regionals follow their rules, then provide virtually no support for them, while simultaneously bragging about how they've spread the culture worldwide.

Regionals are run by organizations that are completely separate from the Burning Man Org.

If you pay peanuts on average you get monkeys. Competent non-profit management people are not exactly the same as competent for profit management but there’s substantial overlap on the skills involved. All of the highly paid people doing Burning Man could get better paid jobs tomorrow.

If you want to do something like Burning Man yourself but with lower paid permanent staff no one is going to stop you. Have fun.

This is untrue from my experience of interacting and be part of several non-profits. Most of these non-profits have actual executives from well known companies in similar positions contributing their time to be unpaid volunteer. Great non-profits I know have largely unpaid executive staff. When I see non-profits with significantly paid executive staff, my heart sinks and I would rather stay away from them. More often than not these are pseudo non-profits exploiting holes in the tax laws and essentially getting tax free revenues to pay themselves.

Fun fact: several racial supremists, left as well as right extremists personalities don’t actually have full time jobs. They are typically head of some “non-profit” created specifically for them where rich people can donate money and they get this money as salary to “run” the non-profit.

Are these great non-profits that you are familiar with large organisations? I’ve known people whose uncompensated non-profit work supported an e tire school though the other ten or so people involved did about half of the work. That kind of organisation does not scale. You can’t run a summer camp without some full time people, never mind a a soup kitchen, homeless shelter or university.

The number of people who are capable of running an organisation of size X who don’t need to be compensated for doing so is way lower than those capable of running an organisation of size X. Being on the board of a prestigious organisation is a great way to network, gain exposure and help the organisation but if no one’s getting paid it’s an upper middle class or higher monopoly. That’s fine if we’re talking about an arts organisation, like the NY Philharmonic or MOMA, where the primary qualification to be on the board is the ability to write a very large cheque but if there’s a more concrete goal it would be better to pay more to get the people who can do it well and do it full time.

On the fun fact, single issue organisations political organisations are as legitimate a non-profit as Democratic Party think tanks like Brookings or Niskanen or Libertarian ones like Cato. The ACLU, NRA and NAACP all started off as small non-profits one time. I hope the left and right’s respective racists don’t grow any more organisation but they have no less a right to the tax status than Soros’ or Koch’s pet organisations.

Most tickets are priced at $425. The $1200 tickets are for people who can afford them but couldn't get them at $425. Some of the $$ from the $1200 ones goes to support the low-income ticket program fwiw.

I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.

  > I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.

Or better: if using a portapotty ruins it for you, contribute a better toilet. I bet lots of people will be very thankful for that.

I have heard same sentiment from other defensive folks. My argument is that when most people are paying $450 for a ticket, organizers ought to provide better solution for toilet. I am not asking for more services or 5-Star hotel grade services. Just something that is less stinky, more hygienic. In the financial disclosure by BRC, you would notice that a very tiny fraction of the revenues goes to low-income subsides (it’s essentially first block of $80 tickets) and artists grants. Even tinier fraction goes to providing toilets. Most of the money goes to “payroll” which remains undisclosed.

Poor people are so often indignant - little do they know they're indignant because they are surrounded by people who think just like them. Crabs in a bucket [0]. The sad thing is - they're not upset that the system as a whole perhaps sucks - just that somebody has it better. So selfish.

When they are gifted a chance to experience something different, they can't help themselves, their indignation shines through even then! That's your post in a nutshell.

People who are happy, people who've worked their way into money, success, etc, want you to succeed too - so that you don't waste your life on petty things like 'coffee should've been free'. It is just so incredibly hard to get through to you when you're disempowered, stuck in negativity.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

This isn't about what someone can afford. It's that an event focused entirely around charity and anti-capitalism is supposedly ripping people off and not using their revenue to improve the experience for attendees.

You, I, and probably most people in this thread can afford a ticket and a cup of coffee. You're missing the point.

This is a real downside of the festival. Just how financially burdensome it is filters and restricts the kinds of perspectives and culture that can enter. It's not just the ticket cost. It's the travel, the ability to leave work, family, and other obligations for so long, the typical costs of costumes and art projects and camp setup, the consumables... for fortunate attendees, these issues are trivial enough to perhaps not even notice. Most people are completely excluded by this.

The cult of positivity will want to justify and explain this away, but sometimes it's important to allow oneself to confront the negative things in life. Don't just blame the poor.

I highly recommend regional burns as a cheaper and more accessible alternative to Burning Man, which has been poisoned in many ways by its reputation as a club for the independently wealthy. A lot of people in attendance don't consider themselves that well off, but you really are if you can take that hit without consequences.

I think the regional burns really follow the intent and aspirations of Larry Harvey more closely than the big burn. But if you can afford it, definitely go to Burning Man and have a good time.

Can confirm how awesome regional burns can be. I've never been to the "big burn", mainly because the expense and distance would make it very difficult for me to attend and actually participate in any meaningful way.

I live on the east coast of the US (can't imagine how much harder this would be for someone who doesn't even live on the same continent) and while I could probably budget the money and time to attend, it would be prohibitively expensive to bring much in the way of a camp.

But I've attended probably 10 or so burns of varying sizes on the east coast and I truly love doing so. It's still an undertaking but I've been able to collaborate with friends (as well as make lots of new ones) to run theme camps. It's an awesome outlet for our creative and armchair engineering efforts and with so many people from different backgrounds, there's so much to learn and be inspired by.

Just seeing some of the great ideas people come up with has helped me to become more confident in trying out ideas that otherwise would have never gone past the brainstorm phase. It may sound a bit rude, but when I see the art projects and interactive games and installations or just fun things to do, I think "these are just other regular chumps like me...so why the hell can't I do something cool for once??"

I think of it sort of like playing an instrument or singing. At some point, there can be validation and motivation to be found in performing in front of an audience. It gets you to practice and refine. It makes you feel good to share with folks who appreciate your efforts. And at burns, I can chat with people who think our interactive lights are awesome or are thrilled that we brought our karaoke gear out into the woods, or are eternally grateful that we are frying up wings and fries for anyone in need of a hot snack at 1am.

Then you multiply this by hundreds of people who also create spaces to dance, lounge, eat, chat, interact, play, or gape in amazement at what you can build when you get a bunch of nerds and hippies and engineers and chefs and artists and musicians (and just random people who didn't even know they had a talent) into the same space.

It's like summer camp for grownups. It's tons of work and tons of fun and I can't think of much else I've done that begins to touch the positive takeaway I bring home after each one (even if it's just learning my limitations).

I never went to burning man, but I definitely want to attend one of those years.

That being said, I cannot stand the Koolaid that you basically hear from everyone coming back from Burning man. It usually breaks down to the fact that Burning man is a perfect inclusive society and that everyone loves happy there without money and that's what society should be.

SURE, but never forget that the extremmely vast majority of the people at Burning man are rich yuppies from San Francisco or Bohemians//Artists that managed to find a way to live on the cheap. I'm pretty sure you will not find a lot of representation of average americans that can get only 10 days off a year.

I would love to live the experience of it, but let's not forget what it is. A yuppie festival mainly targeted at the richest part of society

It is weird, kind of reflects SF city vibes at times.

Lots of money, large income gaps, insane creativity, drugs, non functioning management, quite dirty and disguising in some places, yet somethings totally blow your mind.

A rich yippie paradise indeed.

It would seem you haven’t done a lot of event planning. If I am wrong, I am sure Burning Man would love for you to come up with an alternate budget. Managing that many people in a space that large for so many days requires world class planning, insurance, expenses, and logistics.

Burning Man is volunteer driven event. Virtually everyone managing anything there signed up to do that free of charge. The entire idea is about army of free workers coming out to essentially self-manage.

There are only few things organizers are actually involved in: getting permits from BLM, arranging porta potties, artists grants, website, center stage, coffee serving and volunteer signups.

The cost is high due to basic economics. The BLM permit doesn't allow them to let in as many people as now want to come. When they charged a "reasonable" price all the tickets got bought up instantly and people complained about not being able to get in without paying a ridiculous markup to scalpers. Rather than let resellers reap all the benefit of their event, they charged more the next year (especially for last-minute purchases, which complicate planning) and still sold out. So they kept raising the prices until most of the excess demand had been soaked up. Now people who care a LOT about going to BM pay a high price and/or book early, people who care less are dissuaded by too-high prices, and demand more-or-less matches supply. The extra income means they can spend a bit more on artistic grants to make the event somewhat more worth the high price...and also bump salaries and profits a bit.

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