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Comment by daenz | Hacker News Reader

I've thought about getting plastic surgery to change the way my eyebrows sit on my face. They naturally angle downwards and always look like I'm angry, when my face is completely resting. When I'm interacting with new people, I have to consciously keep my eyebrows raised as I'm smiling to look more pleasant. I really do think it is a hidden handicap though, and one that affects literally every interaction I have with people.

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You can always just shave off all or part of your eyebrows and draw them back in or apply false ones. I know two women who do this because they are dissatisfied with the appearance of their eyebrows. I never noticed either woman did until they mentioned it in conversation. One shaves them all off and draws them anew, the other shaves about half and fills the rest in.

You have a LOT of non permanent options for altering the appearance of your eyebrows. If you wanted to go permanent or semi permanent, there's also eyebrow tattoos.. the technique I've heard of is called microblading and it lasts for a few years.

A lot of Instagram models are doing the semi/permanent thing to reshape and fill in their eyebrows, which in the case of women are usually damaged by them going overboard on the plucking.

It seems like a neat and easy way (compared to surgery) for the original poster to reshape his, if it's really that much of a problem.

My friend had the "corner mouth lift" surgery because his resting face was a frown, and they changed it to a slight smile.

It has a profound effect on his life. He instantly became more charismatic and fun to be around. Everyone "felt" what a nice guy he is, and I'm not sure if it was because of a behavior change or if they were just realizing the person he always had been.

The only downside is now when he ACTUALLY is angry he is still smiling. So people don't take his complaints seriously, they think he is just joking around. I talked to a couple bar tenders who he had to fire, and they said the experience was profoundly disturbing.

This just terrifies me on a fundamental level.

Unfortunately you have to accept it that many people make such dumb snap judgements about others just based on looks and ignoring many other cues.

I'm similar. I have bitchy resting face. I used to do that (raise eyebrows, etc) when I was younger. The wonderful thing about aging, is you don't really care what other people think anymore; at least not as much as you used to.

I also stopped caring sometime in my 40s but my unfriendly and nervous appearance definitely has cost me a lot of opportunities in life.

I remember the first time someone verbalized about my completely relaxed face. I was miles away, daydreaming, and one of my friends touched my shoulder and asked if I was alright. I told her yes, and asked why. She said I just looked really sad.

So apparently I have resting sad face.

Seem to have similar, consistently asked by friends if i'm not ok or upset when i feel fine.

Back in college I used to know a guy who had eyebrows shaped like a rainbow and set very high up his forehead. His brows made his face look perpetually amazed at something. Although his brows did make his face look very handsome. In trying to solve one problem with plastic surgery you might end up with another :)

I face this almost every time I meet someone new. I've forgotten the number of times people have asked me why I look sad or angry. People are intimidated often (especially women, which they've verbally expressed), until they get to know me. Combine that with an introverted personality, heavy beard and an above average height and I look like the right hand henchman of the evil Russian Drug lord. Even if I get a little serious in discussions, people think they've angered me. I constantly have to throw in jokes, just to balance the state of seriousness. I consciously try to smile more often, but it feels forceful. Wondering if there are any facial exercises that help.

In some societies people are expected to smile often if not all the time.

I never encountered such expectation in central and eastern Europe.

In Russia you have to look angrily at strangers :-). A while ago I read a story how the first MacDonald in Moscow taught their people to smile like americans do and how disturbing this was to the Russians first.

>> In Russia you have to look angrily at strangers :-).

Only if you want them to think that you're normal :}

In Russia you are expected to look respectfully at strangers, and not make goofy clown faces at them.

A bland expression isn't respectful, it's bland. Apart from the really fake stuff, which I agree is goofy and just as much an expression of weakness, I also think to some a smile is "goofy" because they can't possibly imagine having good reason to smile even as an intelligent, responsible person. That might make sense in Russia, for gangsta rap, African child soldiers, and so on -- in scenarios where the average person doesn't have the resources and the firm grounding to be open towards the unknown and the stranger, where kindness can only be some kind of plea for mercy or patronizing, instead of the simple friendliness of someone at peace with themselves and their surroundings.

Maybe I'll stop smiling briefly when I pass by someone who will just misunderstand it; but when I'm with myself and the world, or with people or animals who are content, I smile a lot. Why not? Not doing so would be the mental equivalent of not just smoking, but lighting cigarettes with hundred dollar bills.

I think it's a little less true each year. Poland used to have the no-smiling reputation just like Russia. Perhaps it still does. Yet if you go to Russia the difference is absolutely undeniable. Stereotypes often outlive the actual behavior.

I have been told that I look angry when I am focused on listening to somebody. Not a good thing.

Something I've noticed when speaking in public and looking around at the audience (as one should to be a good public speaker) is that the majority of facial expressions will register as skeptical and unfriendly to my eyes.

I found this pretty alarming and discouraging at first, but I gradually realized that for the most part, I was just interpreting looks of concentration to be negative when they were actually neutral at worst.

Even knowing this, it can be hard to ignore. I was recently giving a talk, and a large guy in the front row seemed to be outright glaring at me the whole time. His look seemed to clearly communicate "WTF is this idiot talking about?" I tried to ignore him, but it definitely left me a bit flustered.

When the talk ended, that guy was the first one to come forward and tell me how much he had enjoyed it.

Focus on the foreheads. When you’re nervous, your brain is looking for threats.

Go to Toastmasters and get used to it. Worked like a charm for me.

While we are on the subject of speaking, does anyone know of any free or cheap online voice acting courses they would recommend?

I intend to start a stream but I am dissatisfied with my voice. Sound, expression, pronunciation. All bad. Terrible.

Sounds harsh. I started a stream with a good mic and HD cam and within weeks my mannerisms were better. I’m also realizing a verbal problem I’ve always had and nobody has confronted, even dentists, despite the obvious issues (dentists, doctors, phys trainers to a degree, would have all noticed). I am a good researcher and honest with hard truths, and that’s led to some interesting oral exercises and progress, actually recorded a first draft last night talking about oral collapse effects.

I went with the Blue Yeti... can’t speak highly enough... my first mic, so ymmv vs. other condensers, but the sensitivity of the device is paranoia inducing... high gain and I can hear myself breathing loudly across my apartment.

GL with pro help, my $0.02 is that self feedback can probably carry you till you need specific feedback.

" Something I've noticed when speaking in public and looking around at the audience (as one should to be a good public speaker) is that the majority of facial expressions will register as skeptical and unfriendly to my eyes."

That was one of the best things I learned in Toastmasters. Most audience members looked bored or unfriendly to me. Once I realized that this is just normal I got much more relaxed while speaking and have a much better awareness of the mood of a room.

Try adding some nodding and a few words of agreement while doing so.

You can groom your eyebrows, although if the angles are too steep that might not work (it would look awkward).

But you aren't the first to realize that eyebrows can subtly affect your interactions. People with RBFs have to deal with more than just the eyebrows.

I don't completely understand why so many comments to this article are discussing "RBF" as an objectively real phenomenon. As I read it, the article seems to imply that completely neutral expressions are simply perceived as negative by people who have become conditioned to subconsciously react to neutral stimuli as being negative or hostile. I'd argue that plenty of people face logically unjustified prejudice based on their physical appearance for lots of reasons. Do we want to live in a society where people change their eyebrows because it cause others with subconscious prejudices to judge them negatively? How is this different from arguments about, say, skin color?

The article does not address RBF specifically but speaks to perceivers' perspectives being colored by their upbringing. Most comments here are not directed at the article but at other comments.

Also, there seems to be some evidence that RBF is an observable phenomenon [1]. Empirically I have experienced it both as a perceiver and one who is afflicted.

Psychologically, most humans have a System 1 (fast and subconscious) way of perceiving things, and it's very hard to change that through mass awareness and such. System 1 is based on mental schemas which cumulate over life.

There are of course "enlightened" people who would slow down their thoughts and engage their System 2 (slow conscious thought) in order to overcome prejudice, but the vast majority of people are not enlightened.

And unlike race and skin color, it's very hard to start a conversation in society to combat prejudice against people with RBF because it's subtle, non-systemic, and the severity of its effects are fairly submerged and hidden. It's also not strictly speaking a debilitating condition, although there is some social cost.

I think it's easier for people who are afflicted to try to moderate the effects that their face has on other people's perceptions. It takes some (non-onerous) effort but such efforts do improve their life appreciably.

I would not liken it to prejudice against skin color at all. Just because the two seem to have some things in common doesn't mean they have all things in common.

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/resting-bitch-face-is-r...

>> I don't completely understand why so many comments to this article are discussing "RBF" as an objectively real phenomenon.

Uh, I think the correct acronym is "BRF", as in "Bitchy Resting Face". "RBF" is for "Radial Basis Function", or "Rich Boy Friend", depending on where you're coming from.

Of course, since I realised the connection I've never been able to stop reading "RBF kernel" as the "Rich Boy Friend kernel".

I also have a pretty "expressionative" brow / eyebrow area.

I've run into the same issues you have - and I definitely look mean, and angry when in reality I am just puzzled or intrigued.

Throw in the fact that I am 6'4 280lbs, and this is absolutely a handicap unless I can deal with people enough to the point where they can figure it out themselves.

I remember a muscular guy at the gym who had shaved off his eyebrows, and re-painted them. He always had a happy expression.

I imagine said feature would make a person look "serious" rather than "angry".

Have you tried Botox? Might be a good way to test your theory

Which surgery? Something like a brow lift?

Have you looked into microblading?

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