Why people have trouble reading neutral faces | Hacker News Reader

Why people have trouble reading neutral faces

nytimes.com

137 pointsdnetesn67 comments

As someone with parents who fought constantly and particularly an abusive mother, I can confirm this is true.

I have always been introverted and averse to talking to new people. I’ve been told I’m stand offish or that people think I don’t like them all the time and really I just have a hard time reading faces and assume everyone doesn’t want to talk to me.

It’s something I actively have to fight against and it’s had a negative impact on me my whole life.

If you’re a parent, please please consider what you are doing to your children when you fight around them.

I've thought about getting plastic surgery to change the way my eyebrows sit on my face. They naturally angle downwards and always look like I'm angry, when my face is completely resting. When I'm interacting with new people, I have to consciously keep my eyebrows raised as I'm smiling to look more pleasant. I really do think it is a hidden handicap though, and one that affects literally every interaction I have with people.

I have been told that I look angry when I am focused on listening to somebody. Not a good thing.

Something I've noticed when speaking in public and looking around at the audience (as one should to be a good public speaker) is that the majority of facial expressions will register as skeptical and unfriendly to my eyes.

I found this pretty alarming and discouraging at first, but I gradually realized that for the most part, I was just interpreting looks of concentration to be negative when they were actually neutral at worst.

Even knowing this, it can be hard to ignore. I was recently giving a talk, and a large guy in the front row seemed to be outright glaring at me the whole time. His look seemed to clearly communicate "WTF is this idiot talking about?" I tried to ignore him, but it definitely left me a bit flustered.

When the talk ended, that guy was the first one to come forward and tell me how much he had enjoyed it.

Focus on the foreheads. When you’re nervous, your brain is looking for threats.

Go to Toastmasters and get used to it. Worked like a charm for me.

While we are on the subject of speaking, does anyone know of any free or cheap online voice acting courses they would recommend?

I intend to start a stream but I am dissatisfied with my voice. Sound, expression, pronunciation. All bad. Terrible.

Sounds harsh. I started a stream with a good mic and HD cam and within weeks my mannerisms were better. I’m also realizing a verbal problem I’ve always had and nobody has confronted, even dentists, despite the obvious issues (dentists, doctors, phys trainers to a degree, would have all noticed). I am a good researcher and honest with hard truths, and that’s led to some interesting oral exercises and progress, actually recorded a first draft last night talking about oral collapse effects.

I went with the Blue Yeti... can’t speak highly enough... my first mic, so ymmv vs. other condensers, but the sensitivity of the device is paranoia inducing... high gain and I can hear myself breathing loudly across my apartment.

GL with pro help, my $0.02 is that self feedback can probably carry you till you need specific feedback.

" Something I've noticed when speaking in public and looking around at the audience (as one should to be a good public speaker) is that the majority of facial expressions will register as skeptical and unfriendly to my eyes."

That was one of the best things I learned in Toastmasters. Most audience members looked bored or unfriendly to me. Once I realized that this is just normal I got much more relaxed while speaking and have a much better awareness of the mood of a room.

Try adding some nodding and a few words of agreement while doing so.

I also have a pretty "expressionative" brow / eyebrow area.

I've run into the same issues you have - and I definitely look mean, and angry when in reality I am just puzzled or intrigued.

Throw in the fact that I am 6'4 280lbs, and this is absolutely a handicap unless I can deal with people enough to the point where they can figure it out themselves.

I remember a muscular guy at the gym who had shaved off his eyebrows, and re-painted them. He always had a happy expression.

I'm similar. I have bitchy resting face. I used to do that (raise eyebrows, etc) when I was younger. The wonderful thing about aging, is you don't really care what other people think anymore; at least not as much as you used to.

I also stopped caring sometime in my 40s but my unfriendly and nervous appearance definitely has cost me a lot of opportunities in life.

I remember the first time someone verbalized about my completely relaxed face. I was miles away, daydreaming, and one of my friends touched my shoulder and asked if I was alright. I told her yes, and asked why. She said I just looked really sad.

So apparently I have resting sad face.

Seem to have similar, consistently asked by friends if i'm not ok or upset when i feel fine.

You can groom your eyebrows, although if the angles are too steep that might not work (it would look awkward).

But you aren't the first to realize that eyebrows can subtly affect your interactions. People with RBFs have to deal with more than just the eyebrows.

I don't completely understand why so many comments to this article are discussing "RBF" as an objectively real phenomenon. As I read it, the article seems to imply that completely neutral expressions are simply perceived as negative by people who have become conditioned to subconsciously react to neutral stimuli as being negative or hostile. I'd argue that plenty of people face logically unjustified prejudice based on their physical appearance for lots of reasons. Do we want to live in a society where people change their eyebrows because it cause others with subconscious prejudices to judge them negatively? How is this different from arguments about, say, skin color?

The article does not address RBF specifically but speaks to perceivers' perspectives being colored by their upbringing. Most comments here are not directed at the article but at other comments.

Also, there seems to be some evidence that RBF is an observable phenomenon [1]. Empirically I have experienced it both as a perceiver and one who is afflicted.

Psychologically, most humans have a System 1 (fast and subconscious) way of perceiving things, and it's very hard to change that through mass awareness and such. System 1 is based on mental schemas which cumulate over life.

There are of course "enlightened" people who would slow down their thoughts and engage their System 2 (slow conscious thought) in order to overcome prejudice, but the vast majority of people are not enlightened.

And unlike race and skin color, it's very hard to start a conversation in society to combat prejudice against people with RBF because it's subtle, non-systemic, and the severity of its effects are fairly submerged and hidden. It's also not strictly speaking a debilitating condition, although there is some social cost.

I think it's easier for people who are afflicted to try to moderate the effects that their face has on other people's perceptions. It takes some (non-onerous) effort but such efforts do improve their life appreciably.

I would not liken it to prejudice against skin color at all. Just because the two seem to have some things in common doesn't mean they have all things in common.

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/resting-bitch-face-is-r...

>> I don't completely understand why so many comments to this article are discussing "RBF" as an objectively real phenomenon.

Uh, I think the correct acronym is "BRF", as in "Bitchy Resting Face". "RBF" is for "Radial Basis Function", or "Rich Boy Friend", depending on where you're coming from.

Of course, since I realised the connection I've never been able to stop reading "RBF kernel" as the "Rich Boy Friend kernel".

Which surgery? Something like a brow lift?

Have you looked into microblading?

My friend had the "corner mouth lift" surgery because his resting face was a frown, and they changed it to a slight smile.

It has a profound effect on his life. He instantly became more charismatic and fun to be around. Everyone "felt" what a nice guy he is, and I'm not sure if it was because of a behavior change or if they were just realizing the person he always had been.

The only downside is now when he ACTUALLY is angry he is still smiling. So people don't take his complaints seriously, they think he is just joking around. I talked to a couple bar tenders who he had to fire, and they said the experience was profoundly disturbing.

This just terrifies me on a fundamental level.

Unfortunately you have to accept it that many people make such dumb snap judgements about others just based on looks and ignoring many other cues.

In some societies people are expected to smile often if not all the time.

I never encountered such expectation in central and eastern Europe.

In Russia you have to look angrily at strangers :-). A while ago I read a story how the first MacDonald in Moscow taught their people to smile like americans do and how disturbing this was to the Russians first.

>> In Russia you have to look angrily at strangers :-).

Only if you want them to think that you're normal :}

In Russia you are expected to look respectfully at strangers, and not make goofy clown faces at them.

A bland expression isn't respectful, it's bland. Apart from the really fake stuff, which I agree is goofy and just as much an expression of weakness, I also think to some a smile is "goofy" because they can't possibly imagine having good reason to smile even as an intelligent, responsible person. That might make sense in Russia, for gangsta rap, African child soldiers, and so on -- in scenarios where the average person doesn't have the resources and the firm grounding to be open towards the unknown and the stranger, where kindness can only be some kind of plea for mercy or patronizing, instead of the simple friendliness of someone at peace with themselves and their surroundings.

Maybe I'll stop smiling briefly when I pass by someone who will just misunderstand it; but when I'm with myself and the world, or with people or animals who are content, I smile a lot. Why not? Not doing so would be the mental equivalent of not just smoking, but lighting cigarettes with hundred dollar bills.

I think it's a little less true each year. Poland used to have the no-smiling reputation just like Russia. Perhaps it still does. Yet if you go to Russia the difference is absolutely undeniable. Stereotypes often outlive the actual behavior.

Have you tried Botox? Might be a good way to test your theory

Back in college I used to know a guy who had eyebrows shaped like a rainbow and set very high up his forehead. His brows made his face look perpetually amazed at something. Although his brows did make his face look very handsome. In trying to solve one problem with plastic surgery you might end up with another :)

I imagine said feature would make a person look "serious" rather than "angry".

You can always just shave off all or part of your eyebrows and draw them back in or apply false ones. I know two women who do this because they are dissatisfied with the appearance of their eyebrows. I never noticed either woman did until they mentioned it in conversation. One shaves them all off and draws them anew, the other shaves about half and fills the rest in.

You have a LOT of non permanent options for altering the appearance of your eyebrows. If you wanted to go permanent or semi permanent, there's also eyebrow tattoos.. the technique I've heard of is called microblading and it lasts for a few years.

A lot of Instagram models are doing the semi/permanent thing to reshape and fill in their eyebrows, which in the case of women are usually damaged by them going overboard on the plucking.

It seems like a neat and easy way (compared to surgery) for the original poster to reshape his, if it's really that much of a problem.

I face this almost every time I meet someone new. I've forgotten the number of times people have asked me why I look sad or angry. People are intimidated often (especially women, which they've verbally expressed), until they get to know me. Combine that with an introverted personality, heavy beard and an above average height and I look like the right hand henchman of the evil Russian Drug lord. Even if I get a little serious in discussions, people think they've angered me. I constantly have to throw in jokes, just to balance the state of seriousness. I consciously try to smile more often, but it feels forceful. Wondering if there are any facial exercises that help.

>A study published in March in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships suggests that some people who grew up with parents who fought a lot never learned to properly read those in-between faces, perhaps because they spent so much time watching out for signs of conflict

Why is this kind of reasoning so often applied in such cases? Could just as well be that your parents fought a lot because they were hopeless at reading each other. A shortcoming which you then went and inherited.

While it is possible that this is the case, I doubt that it is equally likely. Parents who fight for that long would have to be bad at reading faces, and abnormally bad at speaking, to accidentally misread each other through an entire argument.

Moving to a country with a different culture and language may help overcome the symptoms. If parents fight using a specific language, aggressive tones and swear words are more easily associated to that language. "Resetting" to a neutral state in a different language can help dissociating everyday words from the negative memories.

Also, in different cultures people's faces and expressions may be markedly different, forcing the person to have to re-learn to interpret them. Again, supposing that on average exposure to people will be more neutral that in a home of disputing parents, the relearning process should tend to have a positive effect.

This is likely to be stronger the more "alien" the new culture/language is, because a more radical relearning will be necessary.

Are you speaking from experience? I never had this issue before, but I moved to a different culture and now I do feel like everyone is angry all the time.

> forcing the person to have to re-learn to interpret them

I've been in said new culture for almost 20 years and haven't done this re-learning, so I don't have high hopes

I've had a bit of this experience where lyrics that in my native language would be cringe worthy don't seem to have that same emotional connotation in a foreign language.

I kind of get the opposite. I'm Greek but have been living in the UK for 12 years. It's really remarkable how much more people smile at you here in situations where you wouldn't expect anyone to smile, back home.

For instance, anyone who is offering a service or selling something is smiling, here. Back home, I find that people tend to smile when they meet friends or acquaintances, but not when they service total strangers. In fact, a merchant that always smiles would probably come across as dishonest. People tend to consider social smiles to be fake smiles and I think they try to avoid them so as to not look distrustful.

The effect this had on me is that when I go back home, or when I'm serviced by non-British staff who may not have been long enougn in the UK to pick up the habit, I sometimes find myself wondering why they are being so brusque. Which is not at all the case. People aren't impolite when they don't go out of their way to put a smile on everything. They're just acting neutrally.

Edit: Oh and I've been on the other end of this myself- when colleagues complained that I was treating them with disrespect when I was just ...not smiling :)

I guess that explains it ... I'm from India (lots of smiles) moved to the US (fewer smiles).

My problem is not that; it's that every headline/blurb seems like it's begging the question.

I can confirm this is true in my case. My folks fought at least 3 times a day when i was growing up till they divorced. A few years ago i realized that i was perceiving anger when none was present. This is why i favor divorce since you don't want to put your kids through this shit. :)

Unfortunately if my parents had divorced, I’d have been left with the angrier one most likely. I’m glad my dad hung around even though he was as much a victim of the abuse as I was.

It's impossible for men to be victims of abuse in our patriarchal system. Check your privilege.

You've posted a bunch of flamebait to HN already. Could you please not do that? It isn't what this site is for, and we eventually ban accounts that do it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I have posted two questionable comments as satire but I'll stop. Thank you for the courtesy.

Anyone else think that in the “neutral” photo, the actors look like they’re about to kiss?

No, really. I blame an overexposure to pop culture. That particular framing, with the characters staring into each other’s eyes, combined with the sense of stillness implied by a photo, to me feels reminiscent of a certain overused stock scene in film…

And there’s reason I thought of film. In a real-life photo, people are usually either looking at the camera (if they’re aware of the photo) or farther away (if they’re not). You wouldn’t usually see that kind of perfectly framed side shot.

So I’m not sure all the children were really “misreading” the emotion in the neutral photo. (Unless, of course, it’s just me who’s misreading…)

Context free pictures are not good enough. In reality, there is always a context.

They do look like people about to kiss. If would look less that way if they would be further from each other. Their shoulders are almost touching. Also, people rarely silently stare at each other at non-kissing occasions.

That's how I know a date is going well, when she's looking up at me with a deliberately neutral expression.

Just remembered the 'how emotions are made' book I read last year, and screaming 'no universal emotion expression' inside.

Wondering how ML/AI can read neutral faces?

Finally, some science behind Resting Bitch Face.

How is it different from the INTJ death glare?

http://intj-explained.tumblr.com/post/10233359295/the-death-...

I think it's important to remind yourself that the Myers-Briggs test is not valid psychology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator#Cr...

It is sound but not reliable or entirely valid. (Soundness pertains to logic behind the test. Validity to accuracy and predictive power and reliability to test/retest reproducibility.)

What is invalid is using this test to anything more than pain typology. It is not meant to be a hiring guide, a mental issue test nor intelligence test, nor social group fit test.

Big Five makes it a bit more explicit though still does nor fully decorrelate the factors. It also has a bit of a reliability problem. NEO P-I is even better. IPIP, further still.

There are more advanced psychological inventories too and ones more specialised for given tasks. I'm pretty sure soneone will come up with a way to integrate emotion and body language reading into an inventory one day.

"bitch" suggests feminine.

"death" suggest masculine.

I know you're joking, but I think the former has to do more with facial features/structure and the latter is more a case of demeanor (not that it actually involves attempts to cause death through eye contact, just that it's different and unsettling to some). Probably the overlap is when the death glare is more noticeable.

The comments on this article seem profoundly American. I could never imagine anyone I've known to care this much.

We've already asked you to stop with the off-topic national swipes. Please?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It wasn't intended as a swipe.

I don't see any way to read your comment that isn't condescending.

Funny how well this goes with the topic. It's only condescending if you take it to be a bad thing. I'm making no judgement, just pointing out the substantial difference in attitudes.

If you didn't intend to make a judgment, then you're communicating poorly, since a lot of people clearly read it as judgmental.

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