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Comment by vitno | Hacker News Reader

On the other hand, I think this is great.

These dockless systems are simply a way to move the negative externalities of the system onto the taxpayer. They clutter sidewalks, result in poor rider behavior, and generate massive amounts of e-waste.

Sometimes, SF actually makes the right call.

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This has been a fascinating rapid reaction by the public. I've been both an evangelist for these and a huge critic. I love the tiniest form-factor, and think the bad parking can be solved by user-incentives. Typical ask-for-forgiveness-later that caused people to blow their tops (possibly due to the still ridiculous looking nature of tiny scooters?).

What really soured me is the quality of machines that have been out of on the streets. Anecdata, but in 12 total rides for me, I've had a scooter that had 1) a hand brake with zero functioning ability 2) a throttle that stuck on as far as the user had pushed it 3) a missing bell. Unluckily, first block on that no brakes scooter was downhill and I dug a heal into the asphalt and eventually did a running dismount to avoid rolling into fast moving perpendicular traffic in Civic Center. Sticky throttle scooter caused an uncontrolled skid. Missing bell was a missing bell. But c'mon, these machines had been used for 10 days and they're having critical safety/maintenance issues. These are the worst possible mistakes, and could easily turn fatal.

LimeBike shirked responsibility and their ops manager gave me a "LimeBike Saboteur Theory" over the phone. Bird took hours to disable a a scooter that i was desperately trying to tell them was dangerous to the next rider. Forget sidewalks, these are dangerous vehicles in their current state. You know how Ford bikes feel like tanks relative to a road bike? These scooters also need to be 10x more robust than what's in private use.

Scooters that are available on Alibaba for $200 are not durable for shared use.

The sidewalk cluttering is such a non-issue. The real problem is people riding them on the sidewalks, which is annoying and best and dangerous at worst. Riding them in the street, on the other hand, is scary, I'm pretty sure too scary for mass adoption - I'm pretty sure Bird knows this and is hoping that people will be able to get away with riding them on sidewalks.

Edit: when I say that the sidewalk cluttering is a non-issue, I just mean that as far as I can tell there is barely any sidewalk cluttering, not that said cluttering wouldn't be an issue if it was actually happening.

Have kids and use a stroller? Old and use a walker? Blind and use a cane? Walk and don't look where you put your feet?

Slip and fall are a major cause of death, only second in accidental deaths after motor vehicles. It brings 8M americans to the emergency room every year. In San Francisco, a whole department has been created only to litigate Slips and Falls.

So yes, I'm glad the city prevented my grandmother from tripping on such a thing.

Going to need a source on that 8 million Americans per year going to the emergency room for a fall. That sounds absurdly high. The US population is only about 300 million. That means more ~2.5% of all people each year go to the emergency room because they fell down.

https://nfsi.org/nfsi-research/quick-facts/ - the 8 million #

https://www.ncoa.org/news/resources-for-reporters/get-the-fa... - quotes almost 3 million older adults per year.

I'm also guessing the vast majority of those falls are inside (probably inside the person's own home). There's a reason companies like lifealert exist.

Over 10% of the US population is over 70. Falls are serious incidents for the elderly.

Whats the median age in downtown San Francisco tho?

If you want to avoid strict regulations move to a red state and go cowboy on your scooter. San Francisco is a conservative place when it comes to the community.

Bay area have one of the healthiest people in the world. It’s an insult they can’t step over or move a 10 pound scooter.

I'm guessing you don't know many people over the age of 65.

Updated my comment: what I'm saying is that there isn't actually any cluttering, not that cluttering is OK.

I have a kid and don't use a stroller - in fact, strollers are kinda one of my pet peeves. They consume tons of space on sidewalks and in restaurants. I'd much rather have sidewalks full of parked scooters that I might at least occasionally use.

But you know what? I'm pretty tolerant, and I'm willing to put up with a little mild inconvenience that allows other people to make their lives significantly easier. I wish everyone else felt likewise.

Strollers don’t typically move 15mph and have 100+ lb people riding in them.

Electric scooters also don't typically move at 15mph, at least not on the sidewalks. Despite the occasional jerk (which also happens with bicycles and for that matter runners), this is not a real problem.

yet! ...

Having tripped over one already, I'd argue the sidewalk cluttering is an issue.

It indeed seems like the companies are playing dumb w.r.t. sidewalk riding and helmets. Are they really assuming people will be walking around with helmets just to ride a scooter for .5 mi? And it's definitely scarier to ride in the street compared to a bicycle.

There's plenty of evidence that helmets don't make you safer, they just make you less likely to ride.

Regardless of efficacy, it's the law in SF to wear a helmet on those things

Sensible riders do it at a speed of a brisk walk.

It's as much of a danger as a grandma (not to say there aren't badass grandmas) riding a bicycle.

In other words, it's a bit of a danger, and also really annoying.

Streets are full of danger then.

Danger that has existed for a long time and is familiar. It’s much harder to take away a dangerous freedom than introduce a new one.

You obviously haven't almost been mown down by an OAP one of those massive 4 wheeled mobility scooters coming round a blind corner - luckily they came on my good side.

Most people don't leave their grandmothers out on the sidewalk overnight. Even in S.F.

A 63 year old man tripped over one on his birthday and ended up in the emergency room with injuries.

People riding them on sidewalks is emphatically not the fault of these companies. Period, paragraph.

I'm shocked to be reading this argument over and over today. That's about enforcing the law against stupid riders. Not companies trying to create a business model for shared bikes.

Yeah, but scooter companies won't have a business without people riding them on the sidewalk, because riding them on the street is terrifying, and it's not possible that the companies don't know it.

They are not at all safe on a road, and if people aren't assholes, they are fine on the sidewalk. The problem is, people are assholes.

The only way to not be an asshole riding one on the sidewalk is to essentially not go faster than walking, at which point why bother?

I actually ride one, and have for about 2 years before this sharing became a mainstream thing. I expected this would happen and always tried to be super cautious when with pedestrians to avoid eventual regulation. I don't have a bell (although maybe I should for safety), but I think it is rude to ding people when essentially I'm on their turf. The advantage they offer if you travel at walking speeds around pedestrians is that there are often significant stretched with no pedestrians on a commute. Also there are parts where you can share a bike lane. In the CBD you are at general fast paced walking speed, but the percent of the journey is pretty low such that it is very efficient for me. Perhaps pedestrians see me as an a-hole though.

A human powered scooter is perfectly fine on the sidewalk. Luxe used them for their staff to get around. I'd love to see a non-motorized docked scooter startup.

Not as bad as a motorized scooter but still not "perfectly fine".

And yet cars kill people every day. Clutter is worse though, somehow.

I have no dog in this fight; I don’t live in SF. I just find it curious that dangerous, incredibly polluting and inefficient vehicles get grandfathered in, and the big gripe with these companies are “clutter”. Seems odd to me, is all.

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