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Comment by atrexler | Hacker News Reader

Long-haul truckers have been doing this for decades for the same reason-- they don't have time to pull over and use the restroom-- and no one is upset about that. I'm sure there are many industries, white and blue collar, where similar norms are expressed.

Edit to add: I'm not endorsing the practice in any industry at all, just pointing out that its not a unique problem to Amazon. My comment would have been better phrased "why aren't more people upset about that?" It IS still definitely a problem!

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wait, you're sure there are many industries, white and blue collar, where workers routinely pee in bottles as a job requirement?

Really? In the U.S.? You're pretty sure about this, eh? Many industries?

I'd be curious to hear an example of one industry where "white collar" workers routinely pee in bottles as a job requirement, official or unofficial.

as a job requirement

If truckers are doing that, it's probably not a job requirement per se. My shallow understanding of the industry is you get paid by the load, especially if you're independent.

Turning an old racing adage on its head- the faster you are, the more money you make. How much money do you want to make?

My dev team are all forced to use the same bottle to save time. The one who tops it off and has to go off to empty it is docked pay.

My dev team each have their own bottle. It's the most expensive bottle on the market and is provided/cleaned/maintained for free as an employee benefit.

It is an IOT bottle, connected directly to the employee's primary work station/laptop. Cleaning/emptying of the bottle is automatic and triggered by employee engagement (eg LOC written/pushes to Github). It can also be triggered manually by the team lead.

Employees who wish to take the bottle home/on vacation with them may do so (same trigger rules apply).

Since implementing our new bottle infrastructure, we've been able to acquire several new key hires from companies where employee benefits aren't taken so seriously.

Furthermore, assigning the emptying of the bottles to our management team has helped balance the company and improve morale significantly (now that we've switched from a unilateral to bilateral flow of excrement).

My dev team used to have urinals in our cubes but HR didn't think it was a sufficiently gender-equitable solution so now we are back to trash cans.

What if someone breaks the build?

Sure, I can't tell you about white collar folks pissing in bottles, I may have exaggerated there.

But in healthcare (for nurses, therapists, aides) its quite prevalent that people don't drink/eat enough at work nor do they take proscribed breaks because productivity standards are so high.

Look I'm not saying its right or fair or good. I'm simply pointing out that its not unique to Amazon.

Not eating or drinking enough is a whole different ballgame than pissing in a bottle.

You're right: not eating and drinking enough is damaging to your long-term health and well-being, while pissing in a bottle damages your pride.

>not eating and drinking enough is damaging to your long-term health and well-being, while pissing in a bottle damages your pride.

You're forgetting the end game here where employees simply consume less water in order to have less bathroom breaks.

Constant dehydration is quite damaging to ones longterm health.

Nope. Pissing in a bottle is a signal that older workers who lack the ability and women who lack the anatomy not welcome.

Quite true (especially for CNA, techs, etc). I worked that job for a while in my late teens. Never take breaks, clock out for lunch then go back to work. Finish your 12.5 hour shift, but have to spend a bit more time off the clock finalizing everything and handing off to the next person.

All that said, it's apples and oranges. Healthcare is that way because the government regulates and pays. They'll basically tell a nursing home that they have to take care of a person and then tell that same facility how much they will be paid. Government regulation of facility standards and market costs dictate that part of the equation. The only part that can be flexed is the worker, so the workers are stiffed and mistreated to make the budget balance.

This is not the case with Amazon. They don't have a government dictating all the rules forcing the workers into bad situations. They simply do it to profit off their worker's misery.

Not the parent comment but I have heard that it is fairly common among UPS/FedEx drivers. I do agree the notion sounds pretty outlandish. To play devil's advocate, I would say it is likely more common than many people would initially expect.

Do you think that GM halts an assembly line that costs $100k an hour when some random dude needs to take a leak?

Anything where output is measured directly and challenged will result in this type of behavior with nasty management.

Where did OP say about job requirement to pee in bottles?

Article is about the UK, not the US.

Is pro gaming a white collar industry?

Lol, are jokes not allowed on HN? Geeeeez you guys.

Actually, long-haul truckers are required to keep logs showing that they are taking adequate rest: the public doesn't want people stoned on lack of sleep to be driving big rigs. Do a lot of long-haul truckers falsify their logs? So I understand. But I suspect they get more slack.

> Do a lot of long-haul truckers falsify their logs? So I understand.

Companies have been moving to electronic logs to try and stop this. I don't know how successful this has been.

> Companies have been moving to electronic logs to try and stop this. I don't know how successful this has been.

I hear there is pushback from drivers about this. Say you're 20 minutes from home, truck is not empty, and you've hit your driving limit for the day. With a paper log you might fudge the numbers so you can get home, see your family, sleep in your own bed. With an electronic log you're not making it home that night.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Truckers/comments/5z4f7l/can_we_tal...

Long haul truckers have a goal they are trying to reach, an end of the line that completes their job. It's reasonable to expect that they would occasionally take opportunities to cut time down to reach their destination faster.

Warehouse jobs have no goal, no end in sight, it's a nonstop churn and having to use tricks to shave your time down doesn't result in extra time off, it just results in more work.

> Warehouse jobs have no goal, no end in sight, it's a nonstop churn...

Long haul truckers may see things the same. There may be a destination, but there is always another after that. It is all about timing departure and arrival and those pesky reset periods. They are under constant pressure to keep moving, always pushing to the next place. If you push hard and make it once it will be expected the next time too.

For some it is a conveyor belt and list of orders, for other s it is a highway and a never ending list of destinations.

Why shouldn't we be upset about long-haul truckers peeing in bottles? That seems inhumane to me as well.

it's not just inhumane, it's extremely dangerous. I don't want to be driving on the road while the guy handling a 10 tonne truck next to me is concentrating on pissing in a bottle.

I'd rather pay the external costs, i.e. an extra few pennies on my delivery and/or wait a day extra, this is exactly why we need regulation in these spaces.

Truckers have time frames and distance to worry about. Only X distance and or time on the road before being off for Y time.

Say you reach your quota 20 miles away from home. Either you have to wait Y time or have a family member come and pick you up and take you back to the truck. YOU CANNOT DRIVE HOME that 20 miles.

Stopping an 18 wheeler loaded with freight for N minutes is a lot more expensive than a single distribution plant employee not packing boxes for N minutes.

If it's a norm, does it make it OK?

All traditions were new once.

Absolutely agree with your point. I don't think the practice in any industry (trucking, healthcare or distribution centers) is okay but I'm simply pointing out its not a unique problem.

Fair - The article seems more about discrimination, workers rights and intimidation more than the uniqueness of the problems.

Are there no legally-mandated 'rest stops' for truckers in the US?

In Europe there are (quite strictly enforced) regulations in place to ensure truckers/HGV-drivers take a 30min break every few hours.

Yes. They are limited in hours per day, hours per week, breaks, mandatory layovers, etc. Most companies have automated logs to ensure these are enforced too.

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/sites/fmcsa.dot.gov/files/docs/Dri...

They still pee in bottles though. Check the sides of the motorways for coke bottles full of a yellow liquid.

> why aren't more people upset about that?

I guess they just don't realize it.

To be honest I didn't either before reading your comment, but I am not surprised it is a thing.

My dad was a long-haul trucker for 20+ years. I did some hauls with him. I can confirm that peeing in bottles is the norm.

I don't think this is so normal anymore.

Now that electronic log books are mandatory, drivers have to take breaks and for the most part should be able to pee.

The existence of littered bottles found along major highways tells a different story. Nobody throws out that many bottles of orange crush.

Either way, they're delicious and I'm glad people are throwing them there.

Can confirm both—they do, and many don't mind. My brother is a truck driver.

Note also that it's harder to get to a bathroom from a truck on a highway than from a desk in an office.

Edit: Does not excuse Amazon's labor behavior.

>they don't have time to pull over and use the restroom

Before E-logs you could could cook the books and have time to absorb bathroom breaks and paperwork delays.

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