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Comment by 5555624 | Hacker News Reader

When you signed up for Facebook, was there a screen that said, "Facebook will take all the information you provide, regardless of format or intent, and monetize it as much as possible, as well as share it with government agencies"? You knew this going in. Many people know this and don't have Facebook account. A lot of people did not know this and are just finding out -- that's where the "outrage" comes out. (A fourth group are those who didn't know and don't care.)

What might be worse is that had Facebook actually put that screen up, most people would not have bothered to read it. Very few people ever read "Terms & Conditions" and that's a problem. (Just like not reading "Permissions" when installing an app.)

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>Very few people ever read "Terms & Conditions" and that's a problem.

Many people seem to be blaming this on the individuals for not reading it, but I would argue that the problem here is a legal system that allows this kind of dark pattern to be considered consent.

>Very few people ever read "Terms & Conditions" and that's a problem.

People don't read them because they can't read them.

>read: look at and comprehend the meaning of (written or printed matter) by mentally interpreting the characters or symbols of which it is composed.

Terms & Conditions are deliberately obfuscated by lawyers and encrypted in legalese. Decrypting these documents into plain english for the average users would go a long ways to breaking the Pavlovian conditioning of checking a Terms and Conditions checkbox for "free" apps.

Exactly.

Facebook is a bad actor. It's good if we can do something about it.

But Facebook is not the root of the problem. There will always be bad actors.

The root of the problem is that people don't care.

I told me friends and relative, again and again, about those issues. I answered any question. I did research, on MY time, to answer their concerns, for them who would not dare spending a second on it. I listened patiently to the witty comments on the fact I didn't have a FB account, for years.

They just didn't care enough to make any effort, any change.

And they still don't, no matter what the scandal feels right now. They will forget tomorrow.

And even if they didn't, they will blame the bad actor, not their choice. And it will start all over again with another bad actor. That's what happen with crazy ex, lying politicians and bad movies.

Now I (somewhat) get that choosing what you buy has a high impact on you life, and so I gave up on expecting people to vote with their wallet. It's sad, because that would have a huge effect, but it's the reality.

But "not using Facebook" is different than choosing to move out of a city or not having a car or other life altering decisions. It's just a communication tool. We have so many.

So I have currently zero empathy for the "victims" of this leak. Quite the contrary, I feel a little angry. Because I have to leave in a world that could be much more beautiful if only people, sometimes, just sometimes, though about the consequences of their life instead of just going with the motion. And this affects much more than privacy. And it's unfair.

>So I have currently zero empathy for the "victims" of this leak. Quite the contrary, I feel a little angry. Because I have to leave in a world that could be much more beautiful if only people, sometimes, just sometimes, though about the consequences of their life instead of just going with the motion. And this affects much more than privacy. And it's unfair.

And the very fact that you insist on blaming the individuals for a collective problem is why problems like this are so hard to solve.

If so many people don't care about this issue, despite its importance, maybe you should stop blaming them and expecting them to magically start caring, and start thinking about how our society leads them to believe it's not an issue?

Chalking everything up to “society” is a great way to never get anything solved.

Change starts with oneself. Connecting on an individual level, making changes on an individual level, understanding and valuing even minute consequences on the individual level - that’s what going to bring about permanent change. Not more groupthink.

We have brains and decision-making abilities for a reason. Yes, I understand society has a very influential role in how we go about our lives. But that is not some catch-all excuse for not taking any responsibility for our individual behaviors. There are two sides to the coin that both need to be addressed.

So how do you suggest we solve the problem without collective actions? What "changes on an individual level" do you think need to occur, and how do you expect them to come about?

Because to me, it seems like the individualist's prescription is just to judge people for making bad choices and hope they make better ones in future.

The individual is the functional unit of society.

When you choose to address society, what you’re really doing, if it’s going to work, is addressing the individuals of that society.

Address a bunch of individuals. Or address one individual and have him address 2 people he knows. Etc. More than one way to skin a cat...

TLDR; to skin a society of cats, one way or another, each individual cat needs to get skinned.

Saying "society is just individuals" is reductive to the point of uselessness though. People exist within a system of social and economic realities, and the choices they make, indeed the choices they can make, are shaped by that system.

And therefore, many choices which would improve society only make sense as collective choices. An individual deciding whether to delete their facebook account is deciding between privacy violation or social isolation. In that context, the privacy violation might actually be the better choice for the individual.

When people criticise that choice, they're noticing that collectively it would be better if everyone made a different choice. But it's pointless to blame individuals for not making a collective choice. If we actually want people to make that choice, we need to act collectively, and transition away from facebook in a coordinated way.

???

Re-read what I wrote, and then name something I wrote that goes against what you have said about collective action and coordination.

For starters, I did not say “society is just individuals.” I said that the individual is the functional unit of society. When you want society to act on something, what you’re really saying is that you want individuals of a group to act on that, collectively.

When you command an army you’re effectively commanding each individual soldier.. as the soldier is the functional unit of the army. When you want the army to move from one side of the valley to the other, what that translates to is for each individual soldier to move from one side of the valley to the other.

If someone is petitioning for social change and fails to lead individuals - the functional units - to change, then there’s not much happening at all besides someone blowing hot air at “society”

I hear you - but hopefully the individualists prescription is really one they are taking themselves and not forcing onto others, but leading by example.

Collective action is just a bunch of individual actions. Yes there is power in syncing up, regardless, it still stems from an individuals decision to take action, with or without others.

I don't know that their belief is a cultural problem, or at least one that's changeable.

The book "The Design of Everyday Things" has this idea that users of things fall into one of two broad groups:

a) users that want fine control and expertise, and are willing to sacrifice simplicity to get it b) users that want simplicity, and are willing to sacrifice control to get it

I think that most issues of privacy and security boil down to the simple fact that most people are in group b (really, I think that's true of any issue you care to choose). They don't care, and they won't.

The cultural change that could make a difference is when the more secure, more privacy-positive options are also the easier and simpler choices.

I feel like I understand this situation fairly well and I still use Facebook, is that a mistake or very bad idea?

I don't know you, I can't tell. I would advice to stop, but facebook is just the tip of the iceberg. It's about doing (as much as it's humanly possible, we are small weak creatures after all) what we can to create a society in which we want to live in.

And for that, before voting, before anything political or big, there is the day to day life. What you you consume. What you communicate. How you behave.

I don't pretend it's easy. I fail at it most of the time, most of the days. I've failed since I was born.

But it's what matters. Not facebook in particular.

What part of "Private Message" do you not understand. These data rapers were stealing peoples "Private Messages"

The term "Private Message" is not complicated. They stole peoples data straight up. Data thieves. What they do is hide behind these screens you defend. Written by scumbag lawyers to not be understood or clear.

I have an understanding of "Private Message." Probably the same as you. Does Facebook have the same understanding? No.

If Facebook said, "Facebook will take all the information you provide, regardless of format or intent, and monetize it as much as possible, as well as share it with government agencies," I would read that as there is no such thing as a "private message" on Facebook, since it says, "all the information your provide."

This is the comment of something who hasn't read the terms and conditions.

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