Hacker News Reader

Comment by rhapsodic | Hacker News Reader

>Average turn-over for the newcomers: 3 months, the legal time to leave your job in France.

Can someone explain the meaning of this? I think something got lost in translation.

That would be the notice period. Germany is similar, it tends to be 6 weeks to the end of the quarter, and it generally applies to both employee and employer. Though it often isn't quite as applicable to the employee...what are they going to do if you don't show up, fire you?

Sweden is also like that. You usually have to linger for two months before leaving after you've quit.

> what are they going to do if you don't show up

They will simply not pay you.

What you do when you're deep into a project like the OP describes is to quit your job by telling your manager that he's the worst you have ever worked for. Then one of three things happen:

1. He/she asks me to stick around for two months. I do and get paid regular salary during. 2. He says "hey, if you want to leave today, that's fine with me". I do but I wont get any more pay checks. 3. They are offended by my critique and says "walk away from you computer right now and never come back". I get paid for two months without having to work.

When #3 happens it's excellent because you will have two months of pay and enough time to find a new job if your resignation was in the spur of the moment. And no need to worry about bad references. When my up and coming boss calls my last horrible boss, someone who I happily divorced, things will work out fine.

Even though (middle?) managers are usually full of prestige and are quite easily offended, #3 has happened to me only once.

Although most don't, I try to utilize or take advantage of the system to the max in my quest to find a decent work place/project. I job hop a lot.

In Spain, the notice period is 15 days, even if your contract says you have a longer notice period and an economic penalty clause. 15 days including the holidays you have accumulated. The trade-off is if you leave you don't have the right to unemployment benefits, that only happens if your employer fires you.

I've never had a job in Germany where the Probezeit wasn't exactly 6 months (the maximum allowed).

Do people actually stay on with a company for six months, after giving notice? And what manager in their right mind would ever want that anyway?

Depends on the employer and employee. I've worked out a several month notice period; I wanted to leave, but didn't want to abandon a small team a couple of months before a hard deadline. Everyone involved was okay with that.

But then I wasn't leaving because the place was a train wreck; I was still engaged, and liked the team I was on. Had that not been true, it would have been a bad move on everyone's part.

I have also seen that happen in multiple occasions (not me but coworkers of mine).

At least in New Zealand, if you abandon your job, the employer can bill you for any costs incurred, e.g. if they had to get a worker from a temp agency, you'd have to pay for the worker, or at least pay for the extra costs of a temp worker.

That's incorrect unless you're a company contracting to an organisation, in which case you signed a contract saying you're going to stay and do X for period of time, and if they have to stop and scramble because you left without the contracting being breached - you're liable. Which is fair and universal.

Employees on the other hand have NEVER been docked pay in New Zealand and you are in NO way legally obligated to turn up for work. The only case you'd experience penalties is if you're a doctor, nurse, teacher and the like where you're likely to receive license/registration repercussions from a governmental board.

You can if you've specifically written it into the contract and made sure the employee is aware of the clause: https://www.employment.govt.nz/hours-and-wages/pay/deduction... (Recovering money owed if employee leaves without working out notice)

I'm not sure if it's ever been in any of my contracts, but it is apparently an option.

That's only in the case where you're over-paid, or paid up-front - in which case you've been paid for a month, and if leaving in 2 weeks you'd only be paid for the time you worked.

Very different to being liable for finding a new hire.

The employment court of New Zealand is very favourable to employees. Even if something was contractually obligated - it can easily be null and void by the court if they deem it unreasonably overreaching by the employer.

> what are they going to do if you don't show up, fire you?

They would fire you for grave offense (I'm not sure what the right word in English would be). But even firing or giving one's notice is long here, around three months.

Gross misconduct or insubordination is the wording usually used in UK contracts (IANAL, YMMV, etc)

Couldn't someone just turn up at 9:01am?

When you're a "cadre" (most engineers are), you can leave or be fired on the spot for 3 months (now 4), renewable once (so then at most 6 months, now 8 months) without any notice, no need for a good reason, it's just over, bye bye, here's your cardboard box and get out, US style.

So in this case, what could happen? either you're a competent engineer, got just hired and sent to this circle of hell, you'd probably leave the next day, no regrets; or you're radically incompetent and you just stick to this job and salary, until 2 months and 29 days later the manager just fires you because you're no good (and he can). Rinse, repeat.

This period is only after the start of the job. (it did not seem clear from your comment)

Also I did not know the maximum duration of trial period has changed, thank for the info.

You have to work for 3 months before you can quit an employer in France. It's not "at-will". At least that's how I interpreted it, and given France's stronger labor laws I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

No, it's the length necessary before the process is finished. You give your resignation and the contract is terminated 3 months later.

That's exactly how it's done, except in Alsace-Moselle (the German part of France during a few wars) where it's two weeks when the employee wants to leave and two to four months (depending on job-specific labour laws – convention collective – and seniority) when the employee is fired.

I took it as you aren’t allowed to quit until you’ve been somewhere for three months.

Actually it depends. When you're on probation period in France you can quit as well as be fired on the spot or within 2 weeks depending how long you've been hired for (don't remember the exact timeframe). Then after your probation period is over (it can last from 4 to 7 months) there is 3 month notice period on both (employer and employee) sides.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com