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Comment by pm90 | Hacker News Reader

This is actually a very interesting article. And with the risk of attracting the wrath on internet haters, let me propose something that personally helped me a lot and which seems like a very narrow application of the principles described in the article: meeting romantic partners.

I tend to be more open in talking to strangers and that has opened up worlds of opportunities to me. But the biggest benefit has certainly been in meeting people that I would liked to date. And what I realized (or read somewhere) is that if you live in a large city, you literally run into a lot of people just in the course of your day. e.g. waiting in line at starbucks, taking the train, at concerts/shows etc. And all that is really required is for one party to initiate conversation.

Let me qualify this by saying that I do not condone pestering strangers; that is borderline harassment (especially for women). But when both parties are interested/responsive, it can lead to adventures that you wouldn't have ever expected ....

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Chatting up a stranger is not 'borderline harassment'. Harassment is harassment. There's a correct way to approach someone in a non-threatening manner, and more men should take the time to learn how to respectfully strike up conversation with strangers (in both romantic and non-romantic contexts)

Given the cultural norms around dating require men to initiate the conversation 95%+ of the time, there's a real risk of demonizing men's efforts to initiate conversation. If nobody approaches, then a lot of great connections never get formed.

> Given the cultural norms around dating require men to initiate the conversation 95%+ of the time

If that is your impression it may say more about you than the world around you. But of course I don't know where you live.

> there's a real risk of demonizing men's efforts to initiate conversation.

I doubt the species will die out. Perhaps some of those reticent women you know will have to make more of an effort!

This is what they call "Game" and it too is learnable. Being relaxed is a big part of it.

Sadly I believe this term has a misogynist undertone. I learned about talking to women like that and while it had enormous benefits, they also didn't really teach what was appropriate and had to learn them as well as un-learn a few bad habits.

“Game” is not misogynistic. If you think that then I don’t think you quite understand it. It is about a reduction in ego via self acceptance. Self confidence and self worth through emotional intelligence. Basically if you understand the teachings on Daniel Goleman, you will end up with “Game”. I think you think I mean a “player” which I totally agree with you on.

> Let me qualify this by saying that I do not condone pestering strangers; that is borderline harassment (especially for women).

There is really no way to know in advance whether initiating a conversation with a stranger is welcome or not, the only way to find out is to try. It's unreasonable to place the burden of a person to signal "don't impose yourself on me" when you could simply leave them alone and not take the risk of being an inconvenience

I guess it depends on what version of the social contact you think we're all operating with. I'd say the quite minor inconvenience of someone ahead of you in line trying to start a conversation is part of what you sign up for when you go out in public. That is, as long as the initiator is prepared to take the hint when it's clear you don't want to talk.

I take it as a design question. Do we want a society designed for people who like to interact or do we want to design it after the desire for limiting interaction as much as possible?

One time, on a crowded train, an elderly lady just started talking about her visit to her lovely grandchildren and what they had been up to since her last visit. It wasn't a short story and to her it was the most fascinating experience in the world. While telling it she turned her head towards anyone who wasn't looking at her. She had quite the powerful gaze. She wasn't screaming but had a loud voice.

Eventually someone rudely interrupted her to ask her if she could stop talking. She just bluntly told him to go sit some place else. "The train is full of people silently gazing out of the window, people who forgot how to talk with others. What are you waiting for? Off you go?"

At that point the laughter made it apparent that people sitting really far away were also listening to her. She kept staring at him and kept telling him to just go away, go be miserable some place else, don't expect us to share your misery. Being made the center of attention everyone else was also looking at him. Eventually he just got up and left (producing even more laughter)

The moment he got up she continued her story exactly where she left of with a tone of voice as if the entire incident never happened.

The most interesting thing I took from the experience was how confident she was that a person who doesn't like to talk with strangers also doesn't talk back when ordered to piss off. Her involving 30 random strangers in her monologue also ruled out any physical retaliation.

After the story about her visit to the grandchildren she told us she always talked to strangers, she did this her entire life and wasn't about to stop. She got to know many nice people. She didn't like how the last few decades this made her the center of attention but felt obligated to remind us things weren't always like this.

We shouldn't let people like the guy who just left force us to stop talking. They are overstepping the bounds. It isn't for them to decide who you can or cant talk to. "Who does he think he is being so disrespectful to an elderly lady?" When she grew up one would listen to what older people had to say. They've been around, you might learn something.

It was a hilarious experience. I've been talking to random strangers ever since. At times you run into introvert people who obviously didn't talk with anyone for years. Without saying anything they reinforce the idea we should keep doing this.

Trust me, you can PM anyone you like on irc. If they say you can't do that you just tell them you just did.

The funniest resolve for the protesters you inevitably run into when doing this has to be....

https://memecrunch.com/meme/20XL1/come-at-me-bro-bruce-lee

> Do we want a society designed for people who like to interact or do we want to design it after the desire for limiting interaction as much as possible?

Personally I would prefer the first one. Like most of people in here, I'd risk a guess.

On the other hand I don't think it's good to have people like your "elderly lady" just casually imposing themselves on a train full of others.

There's a balance in everything.

The point of the story was that she wasn't actually imposing. It's just that the kid she told off was acting like he was representing the other 30 people. The rest of them were probably either indifferent or were entertained by her which is how most people are when you actually talk to them like human beings.

Setting the standard that telling people about your day or telling them about yourself is "imposing" is exactly the kind of thinking that's producing our society where nobody ever has a real conversation unless it's via introduction by a third party and an app first.

This is why when I go out in general (I've lived in Boston, NYC and now Jakarta), I've just wore my head phones. I'm a somewhat tall-ish black guy, so people don't usually want to have a random conversation with me, and if they do (or anyone else is particularly loud about something I could care less about) I can choose to ignore or (dis)engage more easily with an acceptable excuse without becoming annoyed.

>Setting the standard that telling people about your day or telling them about yourself is "imposing" is exactly the kind of thinking that's producing our society where nobody ever has a real conversation unless it's via introduction by a third party and an app first.

Does "real conversation" have to happen in any particular medium, or is it the case that some prefer other mediums for "real conversation" over others?

That is a good question; I will admit that for many people, online conversations are much more meaningful and comfortable than ones "in the flesh". But what I personally like about real conversations (as opposed to virtual) is essentially that you communicate a lot of things i.e. its both verbal and non-verbal. So I think real conversations make more sense to me in only that I understand another human being a lot better than if it were just text on a screen.

Also, real conversations can lead to real friendships and such; I've found that hard to do virtually.

> Do we want a society designed for people who like to interact or do we want to design it after the desire for limiting interaction as much as possible?

How about a society designed to allow people to choose the level of interaction they want dynamically?

>Do we want a society designed for people who like to interact or do we want to design it after the desire for limiting interaction as much as possible?

Second of course. People should interact only if both of them want/need this.

That was a lovely story. It really resonated with me. Thanks for sharing!

I one time walked into a bar and took the seat on the other side of the corner from the only guy sitting there.

I told him about my day. He looked angry at me with very large eyes and a big frown. I just continued my story as if nothing happened. He kept the face on for the first 2 minutes of it. I order a beer and one for my friend here. The added rage in his facial expression was hilarious. I continued talking about my day while drinking the beer. He looked at the glass for a few seconds and decided to drink from it.

The new facial expression was tired but slightly impressed by the way I continued to talk to him completely undisturbed.

Eventually, after 3 beers, the story about my day came to visiting a bar with only one other guest who apparently went to a public place expecting not to be talked to.

He laughed really hard. I said, hey, you got to work with what you have.

He then told the story of the very shitty day he was having. I forgot the details but it was truly a shit day.

> She kept staring at him and kept telling him to just go away, go be miserable some place else, don't expect us to share your misery

From my experience it’s females are more likely to use this argumentation to marginalize the enemy - “nobody wants you, you are alone, go away loser”, etc. Someone might not want to share your misery some time in the future, elderly lady.

Yes, those pesky "females" always ruining the good times of people who just want them to shut the hell up.

My god, what will they do next? Start wearing clothes?

I've signed that part of the contract.

Other people haven't, but if they're irked or just shy, stuff happens.

There's no good way to be sure.

Maybe we could employ some sort of thing we could all wear if we're ok with a random conversation or something?

> Maybe we could employ some sort of thing we could all wear if we're ok with a random conversation or something?

It's called a smile.

Germany is the nation of not smiling. I still strike up conversations and 70% are receptive (and then start smiling). Smiling is not universal.

friendly conversation, sure, but there's enough people who refuse to take a hint that their romantic overture is unwanted. they might even retaliate with really aggressive, angry behavior.

this is rare, but i think it has poisoned the well in some places -- especially for women, these unusual but very frightening situations can make the whole thing have a negative expected value.

The initial interaction is the point for that, not just never speaking to any one. If they politely or brusquely brush you off, it's harassment if you continue. Not for the initial interaction.

There's also loads of non-verbal cues which guide you to who's open to talking to or not. I don't talk to random people much, but I do get asked for directions all the time, even though I'm a 6'2 guy. I think mainly because I'll happily make eye contact and smile at random people who look as if they're a bit confused or lost. I deliver the non-verbal cue that I'm happy to help if they want it. That triggers people in need to ask for help.

If someone struggles picking up on those cues, it might be worth practising at places where people are supposed to be meeting other people. Meetups, networking events, etc.

> I don't talk to random people much, but I do get asked for directions all the time, even though I'm a 6'2 guy.

Same for me (Even when I'm in a city for the first time). My theory was that there is a primate instinct to look for tall males for leadership — I'm calling it Silverback Syndrome.

Weird. I'm a 6 foot tall male, and I also get asked for directions a lot. The most recent absurdity was in Paris Now, I have spent a total of maybe two weeks in Paris in twenty years, I can get by in french, but it must sound like nails on a chalkboard to a native speaker, and I'm pretty obviously american once I open my mouth. Even so, the lady who asked my advice stayed right there while I looked up the address on my phone and attempted (with limited success) to work it out.

I wonder if it really is the height.

http://professormarkvanvugt.com/images/files/heighlteadeship... is a good summary of this well-accepted effect. There are strong correlations between height and income, military rank, likelihood to be a manager, etc.

Could just be a learned behavior; Humans are born short and all the adults are tall.

One of the incredible things about the time I spent living in India is that in Indian society there were far more excuses to talk to people.

For example, to ask for directions (Google maps often not great), or to ask if a restaurant is any good (online reviews often sparse). As a result people are much more likely to talk to each other in regular day-to-day life, and are much more equipped to handle conversations with strangers. I saw strangers talking to each other on trains all the time, and rarely was anyone seen as an "inconvenience"

True... Anyone who have traveled in train or bus in India would know. Personally I have some good experiences in talking to strangers.

Last day I was talking to one person who is working in marketing of medical instruments. I learned some new stuffs about that.

FWIW I find that NYC culture is like this too, at least relative to the USA's interior.

> There is really no way to know in advance whether initiating a conversation with a stranger is welcome or not, the only way to find out is to try.

I am just massively inhibited in this regard; I don't want to intrude and is it really worth it to them? Not just in line, but even before a talk (i.e. a "networking event") or at a party.

I had a colleague who was the opposite: he could not only strike up a conversation with any random person he happened to be next to, but those often turned into real conversations (e.g. repeated email, contained talking, etc). I could never get the hang of it. (Sad to say this was his only redeeming quality).

Practice makes perfect. If you're at a networking event then everyone there is probably there to network. I think the hardest part is starting the conversation, but as soon as you start the conversation, it usually gets a lot easier.

I find it easiest to begin conversations near food or drinks because most of the time I'll pause, scout the room, and see whether I know anyone or how I have no one to talk to, and usually there will be another person doing the exact same thing. So it becomes very easy to open with one questions from the following like: Hey what do you think of the event so far? Are you excited for the event? What do you do? How do you like the food? How'd you hear about this event, etc. Pick one and see where it goes from there. You'll be able to tell whether they're interested in continuing the conversation or not, if they're not, maybe they're super hungry and they don't want to talk, or they actually need to talk to someone else. Don't take it personally but recognize social cues of when people don't want to talk to you. You can also tell when people are looking for someone or someone to talk to by how they're not talking to anyone and looking around the room. Opening a conversation with someone like that will usually be appreciated because most of the time you'll be saving them from that super awkward feeling when you know no one at a networking event.

It's interesting to see this discussion in parallel with the front-page post about being diagnosed with autism as adults [1].

One of the interviewees describes herself as "being born with the social skills of a used teabag"—I wonder how folks like this factor into the calculus about starting discussions with strangers. What might seem totally fine to some could come off as tone-deaf, inappropriate, or even borderline harassment to others.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16679469

I have to admit, the latter part certainly worries me given the witch hunting obsession society seems to have with perceived harassment and creepiness nowadays. I'm definitely a tad fearful than somewhat on the autistic spectrum (or with various other neurological differences) could end up with their life destroyed by a social media mob due to something they couldn't understand.

And I suspect in many cases, that may stop those with those conditions even trying to attempt conversations with others, since they've heard the horror stories and fear their already tough situation could unintentionally end up becoming even tougher.

It's also unreasonable to place the burden of a person to signal "please connect with me" when you could simply reach out tho them alone and not take the risk of increasing their loneliness.

  Step One: Eye contact (sustained)
  Step Two: "Hello!"
  Step Three: <customize in situ>

Step one is crucial if you can’t take rejections lightly. However, a lot of people are shy and they tend to look away. I’d say just man up and skip it. But do know when to stop if the other party isn’t reciprocating either through lack of interest or body language.

No, don't skip it, particularly in random situations.

If someone isn't making _actual_ eye contact with you, they're not open to being talked to. Simple as that.

If you're good enough at reading body language and talking to random people that this advice doesn't seem true.... this is probably not advice that you need. If you're like me and couldn't figure out how to determine this through other means - or are rather fearful of intruding - well, it's a real handy rubric.

Well, it's pretty obvious when you shouldn't approach. For example, they may be walking quickly possibly deeply preoccupied with something. Basically if you have to step out of your way to introduce yourself, it's probably not the best time.

But in certain situations like waiting in line at starbucks, people nearby don't usually make eye contact. It's a bit too close and uncomfortable to even begin making eye contact unless they're at least 5-8 peoples away. People seem to glance away more often in close proximity, and it's harder to look back (just my experience when I try to make eye contact with someone). And if you find them mindlessly on their phone or staring at nothing in particular, it doesn't hurt to start a conversation.

It's really important that you shouldn't have to look like you're trying to start a conversation. It should just flow and be effortless. Having said that, I have the deepest respect for people who have gone out of their way to talk to strangers and getting rejected. I always thought it was stupid, but once you have seen it in person, it's a different story. They know they have a small chance, but they play their cards anyway. Most people don't have the confidence to do this, like me.

This is totally reasonable. I feel like "Step One: Eye Contact" was a very, very good starting point on a journey for me.

You may find adhering to it confidence-building in situ long enough to develop more personalized (to you) skills.

I'd move "sustained" to after the Hello", otherwise it's creepy staring.

Staring != sustained, although defining that is hard.

What you're trying to do is establish that the eye contact is not incidental; "solid" may be a better word that "sustained".

If someone is unwilling to hold eye contact with you, they are unwilling to talk. That's the test you're trying to run.

I don't know about that. There are a lot of non verbal cues like body language, eye contact, etc. Then there are a lot of different ways to start verbal communication that are less strong than other ways.

Yeah, it's usually fine to initiate a conversation (politely), it's more about knowing whether or not you should continue it.

I’m extremely introverted, but spent a few months backpacking which really forced me out of my comfort zone. I met my wife at a hostel on that trip and we have two kids together. I’d never had ordinarily talked to her, but I was lonely and we were the only Americans there. I don’t think we’ve been apart for more than a few days since we both got back to the US.

That's why i refuse introvert or extrovert titles. I can be different in varied situations.

What do you mean by adventures?

Life experiences and personal growth. Opening yourself up to others (especially interesting others!) and entering their world is about the only way I've seen humans reliably grow and change as individuals.

Something I wish I would have learned and internalized at a much younger age!

Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you meant stuff like skydiving.

Can you give an example of "personal growth"? (I'm not sure what exactly that is, but I think I need lots of that.)

Maybe learning new things by hearing others' perspectives and experiences? I often need to remind myself to think more about how others feel and think since I'm accustomed to staying in my own head. Talking with somebody even briefly often enlightens me to interesting things

In my head I had an image of him twirling the end of his mustache as he said that.

STD and scabies mostly

He said "open mind", not "empty head"! :-)

Still, that's a risk, yes.

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