Hacker News Reader

Comment by astalwick | Hacker News Reader

https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/976783608219279360

He goes on to defend his work at Google, arguing that they're similar on the surface, but Facebook is truly dangerous where Google is not.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Google is quite a bit more distributed across products and platforms, so Facebook has a simpler loop centered around the newsfeed. That said, Google can track a user's behaviour across nearly every website on the internet.

Facebook can run these "reinforcement learning on a global scale" experiments through its newsfeed. Google, it seems to me, can run them across the web as a whole.

View on HN

Facebook seems more upfront about what they collect (everything) and why (because it's valuable).

Google persists in trying to justify its thirst for your data (we need it for maps traffic reports / google now suggestions / allo suggestions / to improve your maps experience / etc etc.)

The one point where Google wins out over Facebook (apparently) is that they're big enough to not need to expose your data to others. (Honestly I'd assumed Facebook was already at the point where they realised that the data they hold is worth more than a third party is likely to pay for it, which is the only reason the CA reveal was surprising to me...)

I think Facebook gave app developers all of that data to grow their ecosystem at all costs. They've rescinded a lot of that data in recent years as they've achieved ubiquity. Unfortunately both Facebook and Google have achieved a mass surveillance system with their OAuth logins across the web and apps.

I agree that Google have a lot more data points and like Amazon are doing everything they can to invade physical space as well. LinkedNYC kiosks, Google Home and Toronto Waterfront projects are examples of making sure you're data is being collected 24/7.

To be fair, the data google collects does end up making their products better.

> everyone who usually drives on this road is taking a detour, was there a accident or construction going on?

Often, yes, which is why it took so long for me to start balking at it. But these days, even though the data does also improve their products, it feels so much more like an excuse to grab the data. Try removing Google Play Services' access to location data, for instance - it will nag you about it in apps like gmail, and try to guilt you into turning it back on, even though gmail has no need whatsoever for your current location.

Google has like 3/4 of the phone market. I didn't know they tracked my location by default for a long time, and though I thought I turned it off I still get random notifications from google maps asking me to rate a restaurant I just ate at.

EDIT: grammar

The cell service provider can also track you, and you have zero control over that. They may be sharing your location info with many parties, including google.

I don't think there's a technological fix for avoiding location tracking of connected devices. The network must know where you are in order to deliver the connection, and you cannot control the network. Any control given at the device level is therefore an illusion. The only comprehensive solution is a legislative one. Outlaw improper use of location tracking information (GDPR-style), and allow people to use the courts to force good behavior.

I live in Canada. Canadian companies have to abide by certain privacy laws. Google is a foreign company and what rights do I have as a non-us citizen?

In T-Mobile Account Settings you can choose to disable T-Mobile's selling of your data to third parties. It's on by default.

Also mentioned on replies to that tweet was that maybe google.com doesn't have newsfeed functionality like facebook. But youtube does. And the personalization of search results based on your profile can also have similar effects.

The Android launcher app has a newsfeed, and they also added that to the (at least Android) Chrome start page.

Sometimes I'll read an article to get a sense of what some gossip is about and then I get half a dozen wack-a-doo suggestions there, it is pretty bad.

Also, since I marked that I'm interested in a couple of sports teams, I'm obviously obsessed with them and want to know everything repeatedly.

Considering most search queries are simple and apolitical, I feel the argument "tailoring search results is less dangerous than curating a news feed" has some merit.

That aside, if you use Google as your main news outlet, all that goes out the window.

The big difference is facebook could die over night - some hot new thing gets popular and facebook disappears into obscurity. (unlikely but a possibility)

Google on the other hand is not so easy to replace, it's not a popular trend, it's in the browser i'm typing on, my pocket, my map/navigation, email, chat. Google knows a disturbing amount of information about me I never intentionally gave. Facebook just knows what I tell it.

A malicious google could do a unthinkable amount of damage to society, there is little we could do if we even knew it was happening.

Personally, I found Google much easier to replace than Facebook. In the case of Google, I started using DuckDuckGo, and it's been fine. There are alternatives for maps and email too.

In the case of Facebook there's a lot of peer pressure which keeps people on the platform. To leave Facebook (for most people), your friends also need to leave with you. Unfortunately, while this is slowly happening now, people seem to be flocking to platforms also owned by Facebook -- Instagram and WhatsApp.

Tracking does not seem much to be a problem, Since we all know that we are being recorded by Google and FB. Its when they use the information to Change your beliefs, Behaviour, Ideologies and Thought process it becomes a problem like the author is talking about. Google is not there yet facebook newsfeed already is.

I would agree that Facebook is more dangerous as its interaction with the user is more engrossing and totalizing, but I definitely disagree that Google is not dangerous. Google can do the same things as Facebook but with different vectors.

Facebook also tracks users across the web, isn't that what the like buttons are for?

Sure but how about Pixel. Or Google Analytics, Clicky, Alexa (analytics not the talking thing), Adroll , ... I mean the amount of trackers I can toss on a website is mind boggling and super easy, all hoovering as much data as possible. This is not exclusive to Facebook nor do I think they gather the most data.

After sorting through this guys first half dozen tweets I finally realized he's talking about AI and advertising. As an ecommerceguy here's my take. I'd love to be able to upload a product feed, have FB or whomever evaluate those products and push them to whomever the adbot/algorithm/ai/hall9k whatever we're calling it today; as long as it returns good ROI, happy customers and less work for me I'm happy.

This is already somewhat possible with Google Shopping Feed.

So again, besides this helped Trump, why the outrage? All I see is people freaking out at what has been public knowledge for years albeit obfuscated under a massive sheen of PRSpeak. FWIW I have always actively stayed away from Facebook as much as possible to the point I tell my sister to take photos off her feed of me. But here I am tangentially defending them.

I wanted to add a link to this site, It connects to over 200 trackers. https://segment.com/

I am not from US so I don't care about republicans or democrats, I am happy the people got outrage because of Trump connection because it has the side effect and pulling hidden things into light

Also the fact that you know how Facebook or Google makes money does not mean that the public knows, so my father does not understand why someone would put videos on youtube or would put fake articles about things, or click bait , most of the people do not know about trackers, about the fact that ads on pages make money for the website, that ads on the videos make money for publishers.

I hope this scandal will make some light on exactly what Facebook collect when I visit a webpage with FB buttons, I want us and the public to find out about the shadow profiles, about any experiments done on users, it would be good if we find if similar things happen in other countries elections and I am wondering how well this things work.

Also it would be good if we could get less crap on FB, I do not use it that much but I have people in my family that read articles posted in FB and most of them are fake news(not politics but other crap like medicine)

I hope we get some laws about tracking people outside your webpages and making shadow profiles illegal.

So even if you don't like Hillary or her party, I think you should desire the entire truth surfaces and we see all details, elections are done so it is nothing you can do now but maybe with more information the next ones will be better with less dirt and fake news in social media and more actual debates.

Facebook needs "like" buttons, Google have other, more invisible ways: mainly Google Analytics and Google Adsense.

But Google can in many cases, _control_ a large part of the web, not just track it, due to its vastly superior external interaction surface.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com