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I had major depression for a couple of years and here's how I eventually got out of it: 1) regular exercise. Start small, you're not supposed to break records. But it's very important to do it regularly. You can start with one exercise, like cycling or pushups, and then in later weeks or months add more once you feel you got the hang of it. Also, I think aerobic exercises on fresh air like cycling, jogging or even going for a walk work best. 2) Go for a walk pretty often. Just to see a changing landscape and not the same 4 walls all the time. 3) Friends. Meet them with some regularity. If you don't have, meet people over a hobby and you will eventually make some friends. Friendly faces are nice. 4) Music - especially new and nice - works VERY well for me, but then again I'm sensitive to music and some arts. 5) Herbal pills for depression - hypericum. Supposedly as good as many synthetic meds, but much fewer side effects. Note you want either pills, alcohol or oil extract. The substance that deals with depression and stress (hypericine?) is not water solluble. So common teas don't work. Watch out for photosensitivity (you might get burns or other skin problems from being exposed to sun). 6) Vitamin D, at least 2000IU a day.

Try these things. It really helps, especially once you're used to some exercise. Now I still have anxiety and low stress resistance, but I can act and get stuff accomplished. Also, people say getting a cat or dog is a big help too (I haven't tried it).

Anhedonia - lack of ability to feel pleasure - in my case comes largely from the habit of suppressing emotions. I'm working on it.

Also, I practice meditation (for stress, memory and concentration), 1-2x a day for 15 minutes. I'm not sure how much it helps, but I'll take every help I can get NOT to fall into this black pit again.

For the Vitamin D in particular, there's recentish news that suggests most people in general may be somewhat Vitamin D-deficient and that the recommended daily dose should be sharply raised.

I will add a point if enec-data. I live in Seattle, and have sun avoidance tendencies. I take 2000iu if D3 daily in pill form. I find that my depressive type moods tend to be highly correlated to when I've forgotten to take my D3 for days or weeks at a time. Usually its because I've run out and forget to pick some up. I don't notice for a while, then a week or two later I realize I've been sinking into a funky mood and make a priority to pick more up. Usually I perk back up after a day ir two.

The caveat being it's hard to tell if I'm already coming out of a funk and that's why I can run errands again like going to the store, or if just doing things 'to take care of myself' are triggering the upswing. But I still try not to run out of D3 especially in the winter.

Also know that you can overdose on vitamin D, so it's best to take in the morning rather than night. The body naturally stops production as you reach certain levels so you're not likely to get too much, even if you spend all day in the sun.

Wow! I awoke early this morning from a bit of a bender last night and have a similar feeling of mania (the positive, productive kind). At first I attributed it to a GABA rebound, but thinking back, a sleep fast has historically injected a sense of urgency and vigour.

I have been fasting intermittently after reading Valter Longo's metabolic oxidation research (the term they used for aging research to get it published). I skip breakfast and try to leave 16-18 hours between meals. Have been losing weight but keeping muscle tone almost effortlessly. My skin has also improved. No negative effect so far.

Good interview about I.F.: https://youtu.be/d6PyyatqJSE

Wow, I haven't thought about that GABA rebound in ages. I quit drinking a long time ago, although I had to do it a few times. This is just another data point, but I too remember "increased vigor/urgency" from acute sleep deprivation prior to drinking habitually.

I have maintained up to a year on the same food schedule as you describe, and it was nice in a lot of ways. I don't know if I'll ever be quite that lean again, but that's okay.

While IF seems to do a lot for many, including me, it also seemed to exacerbate my anxiety. I stopped for that reason, along with the unrelenting societal pressure to eat, I mean.

I live in the United States, and IMO we are just really tragically confused about food even as we drown in it.

I skip meals often (it isn't like they're mandatory, right?), but haven't done any "formal" fasting in some time. Thank you for the input and the link.

I am curious when anxiety happened in your case? For me if I fast for few days the second night (like 28-30 hours without food) is sleepless due to anxiety.

Well, I haven't intentionally tried to do fasting beyond the 18-20 hour mark during chronic IF. The afternoons could be tough on the second day for me. Actually it forced me to find a nice meditation spot where I could spend my lunch calming down and attending to my focus. I was probably a much better co-worker on sunny days. Oh, I should mention that it would have been really easy to just work through lunch given I had higher energy and focus levels. Eventually though, a walk or something active mid-day became essential if I didn't want to end my days in robo-mode.

Evenings were always easier for me on the tail end of the IF routine; I sometimes enjoy cooking; I had an excuse to plenty of whatever sounded good, and when you have a four hour window to eat, food tastes so much better its shocking.

I'm also skipping breakfast. Trying to keep at least 16 hours between dinner and lunch. Started nearly a year ago. Generally I feel better, and intend to continue, but:

* Somehow I didn't lose much weight. I wasn't particularly overweight to begin with though. Maybe lost 1-2kg over this period(?)

* My blood tests showed increase in cholesterol. I was reading about it and it seems common (or not very uncommon). It's still not too bad, but higher than before.

Actually, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say or ask :) but mostly curious if there's something I'm doing wrong I suppose.

You should be careful doing that too regularly. Once a week is the maximum I’ve understood would be healthy for typical first world lifestyles.

It will otherwise coax your body into starvation response. This is true even with low calorie diets.

You can cause you’re body to retain store energy and retain fat rather than in a constant state of burning what you take in.

If you’re looking to lose weight you’re better off just limiting carbohydrates on non workout days. Eat a lot of vegetables and protein, take a multi, and do cardio and high intensity interval training 3-5 times a week.

If you want to build strength and lose weight then mix in resistance training into the routine as well.

As a baseline that schedule will help with anxiety, depression, and get your metabolism on track.

For most people, that is. I’ve been on antidepressants before as well as some anxiolytics. Excercise, vitamins, and eating healthy most of the time does a world of difference. Another benefit is you don’t have to limit you’re calories as harshly. Energy levels go up as well— to the point where sitting at a desk all day is too much idling!

Btw, I eat between 2 and 6 eggs a day (between breakfast and lunch), use butter/olive oil/sesame oil in cooking regularly, and my cholesterol has never been high following that general scheme. No hacks or tricks.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-weight-loss/does-met...

> Once a week is the maximum I’ve understood would be healthy for typical first world lifestyles.

As far as I understand, the 16-hour fasting (skipping breakfast) is something you keep doing rather than once a week. Unlike a 24/48+ hour fasting some people do once in a while... Maybe I missed some crucial piece of information?

Yes, that calorie reduction to that degree increases the chance (body type-dependant) that your’ll induce starvation prevention reactions in your body. An at rest adult human typically requires 2000 calorie sharing a day to maintain weight. That’s if you never left your bed. Regularly reducing that further will cause your body to store more energy which results in fat gain. And not always the good kind.

The simple way for me to put it is move your body and fuel it regularly for the best results. You don’t have to fast 16 hours a day, and I d wager you’d meet better results without doing so.

If you don’t want to move your body then that’s a whole other world of questions. But if you’re generally healthy and capable, you should.

The IF literature I’ve read indicates that calorie reduction isn’t really a goal, though it often happens to some degree. But I’m generally not taking in 2/3rd of prior calories just because I’m eating 2/3rd of the meals - more like 3/4 or 4/5.

This is all new to me so curious where you’re getting this info from so I can read up.

No problem. I really brought up calories, etc due to the other posters mentioning limited weight loss (or sometimes gain) as well as increased cholesterol even though they were reducing the frequency of meals (I was guessing at a reduction in calories because of that, though it’s fair to say that I don’t really have that insight in this case)

The info I’m conveying is part coaching, part experience/anecdotal, and part reading aggregate from health studies, running and sports health magazines, as well as general health magazines.

My parents were national-level athletes (70’s/80’s) and, later on, coaches. My mother was certified to coach in the Olympics (though she did not and continued her work locally). I was an athlete when I was younger and learned most of it then, but have in recent years taken a return to focusing more on my health. Also much of my reading stemmed from trying to lose weight after quitting smoking (also went from a physical job to a physically-idle one around the same time. Gained nearly 50 pounds. I was on antidepressants and anxiolytics at the same time. It was messy)

My girlfriend’s step mother is competing at the world championship Iron Man race this fall in Kona, and her advice was much the same (we plug everyone we can for coaching. Her stepmom even has her on a custom workout).

I don’t have much hard reading I can provide off hand, but a few searches surrounding the points I put out there should yield quite a bit of information. Primarily links between excercise and how it helps with depression and anxiety, and metabolic studies including starvation responses.

If you want to continue the discussion further I’d be happy to, and happy to help find further info that might resound more than some hexadecimal-aliased rambler on a message board. ;)

I have had similar outcomes. I started the Intermediate Fasting in order to try to lower my cholesterol, but mine actually went up as well. Weight went down initially, but then stabalized at my normal, pre IF, weight.

Depending on the food people can gain weight with IF. My impression is that with IF it is easier to follow diets to reduce weight, IF alone is somewhat orthogonal to weight management.

I’ve irregular sleep patterns. Often sleep four hours or less, with a sleep binge every now and then.

As long as I go to sleep when I feel tired and I can get past the post dinner stump I’m exceptionally energeting the afternoon and the whole evening, but a bit groggy in the morning.

Fair trade since evening is time for me and family while morning is mostly work.

The effect on metabolism/hunger seems crazy tho. When I get back to a regular sleep pattern I usually lose 3 to 6 kiloes just from that.

> My skin has also improved.

This could be a symptom that you're eating food that is too rich or oily. As someone who's been involved with the care of many types of mammals, if a mammal starts developing spots then it is usually because of their diet, swapping out different food can have a huge effect with regards to this.

Semi-related: I do a once per week water fast on the same schedule (no food thursday, eat friday night) and I have similar mental-reset and body-reset type benefits. Maybe there is something to be said for just breaking yourself out of your rut and pushing yourself mentally on an unusual physical metric. Might trigger some evolutionary stress response that kickstarts our hunter/gatherer instincts.

You may be correct about these benefits being general side-effects of stress/deprivation. I'm trained to be wary of sexy and intuitive ideas, but I am charmed by anything with a halfway plausible evolutionary-biological basis. Even if it's bro-science.

Fasting is scientifically studied. Google Jason Fung and Valter Lonngo.

I'm sorry, I think I was unclear; I totally agree with you that the benefits of fasting are well documented and extensively studied. In addition to conveying possible mental benefit, the fasting is an attempt on my part to feel hunger again. I recognize that probably does not come off well, but I'm never hungry. It's been years. I don't eat all the time, I just eat when I feel like it. I remember times when I was actually hungry, and while life is easier now, I think it might be useful to go find that hunger again.

100%. This was the mind blowing realization the first time I fasted for a good 24+ hours. Feeling ACTUAL hunger, and realizing that what I normally associated as hunger was either thirst or restlessness.

Or it might just be placebo.

> The downside: I am totally sober, but I know my executive function is not working very well, and I may very well regret commenting.

As someone who is chronically sleep deprived this hits me hard. I had a few days of "full wakefulness" last year, where I had a good nights sleep for a few days in a row and my head was just clear. It felt so amazing to be "all here" and notice that your brain is firing all cylinders when thinking about problems.

Since a few years ago my sleep routine stuck at 4-5 hours per night sleep. Some months ago I slept for 9 hours during 3 nights, and what a day... It was surreal as I felt to be imensably capable of thinking hard and focus.

Hey... made a HN account just to reply you. Just wanted to say that what you wrote very much so resonated with me, or probably more so, me at a point in the past.

If you ever feel like you just need to talk, please reach out. Sleep is actually always a good thing and once you get on a decent schedule there’s nothing better than a solid 8 hours.

Personally, I always feel a lot more in touch with who I know I am, whether that’s the best version of myself or not, after consistent rest. Would love for you to someday find the same.

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Wow, that's really kind of you, and totally unexpected...

Thank you. I may never need to call, but it means a great deal nonetheless.

Long term sleep deprivation is bad for your health/brain. When you sleep your organism is getting rid of the toxins from your brain. There was a study some time ago that showed if you sleep less than 7 hours a day then proteins connected with Alzheimer disease accumulate in your brain.

> When you sleep your organism is getting rid of the toxins from your brain

Is this generally accepted to be true these days?

I'll leave a more rigorous answer to your question to a doctor, but there is evidence that Alzheimers disease is caused by a buildup of "plaques" (beta-amyloid, a toxic protein) in the brain tissue. This buildup is removed during R.E.M sleep in those without the disease.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/how-sle...

I've heard claims about sleep triggering a general "cleansing" of the brain, but I'm not a neurologist, so I can't say for certain there's evidence for the general case.

Okay. I was aware of the theories, but from your earlier comment I got the impression that maybe it's now more than just a hypothesis. Either way, interesting links. Thanks!

May I suggest polyphasic sleeping? I've been doing the dymaxion schedule (30 minutes every 6 hours) and my anhedonia is pretty much gone. What's in place, however, is pure euphoria. It may be difficult for some, because the personality differences are huge, but if you cannot keep up exerting tremendous effort into living, it could be a possible change. My only worries starting, was that I was too relaxed and calm. It almost felt like nothing affected me and my sense of fear was nonexistent. Whether this is closer to nirvana or insanity, I don't know, but it's been nice. And the overthinking and hyperawareness that came with a fresh 9 hours of sleep is gone.

Sounds interesting, but it seems only those with a particular gene can properly adapt to it?

I really enjoy that surreal aspect of sleep deprivation. Everything seems to be a bit different through that lens–almost, but not quite like a fresh perspective. Not quite because it feels like you had it all along. Maybe it’s just elucidation but that doesn’t feel apt either. I don’t know your writing style generally speaking but this comment feels slightly tinged with that surreal feeling (in a positive way).

Of course the major downside is, as you mentioned, a decline in executive function. I find myself trying to filter things I say manually with mixed results. Rambling is definitely magnified.

I get more irritable when sleep deprived. Anyone else have the same thing?

I don't think purposely incurring sleep debt is for me. Maybe others handle it better.

This thread piqued my interest because I have a love/hate relationship with sleep deprivation that touches on what you mentioned:

- On the positive side of the scale, sleep deprivation can boost my creativity and ability to focus enormously, every now and then (context: as a programmer).

- On the negative side of the scale, I would be fooling myself if I pretended that this doesn't make me more irritable in the days after.

Over the years I'm slowly but surely learning how to balance these things against each other and pick suitable moments for these creative outbursts without overdoing it :-).

Yep, I have noticed this myself. I am much more likely to get into fights when sleep deprived. I have less patience with people.

Have you ever tried something like magic mushrooms to perhaps rewire your brain? To remove that everyday filter for several hours and flood your brain with totally new experiences and a new way of looking at things. I think it's worth a shot but you'd have to do it in a controlled environment with people you like and who understand you.

I have, yes. I've had several moderate-heavy psilocibin experiences, each during a major transitional period. I consider [mushrooms] excellent medicine for certain people, in certain doses, at certain stages of development (phenomenological and ontological, not developmental). That said, I cannot in good conscience encourage their use in the context of someone else's mental health, given the really quite serious possibility of things going wobbly.

I'm not a hippy or a burner, and I'm not a psychedelic enthusiast. It bothers me to read breathless articles about everyone microdosing their way to success, but--I believe I owe my continued existence at least in part to a radical and abiding shift in perspective following ingestion of unusually potent psychedelic mushrooms. I was 27 and at the time suffering from recurrent, lengthy periods of anxiety and depression severe enough to make suicide seem like the most humane and considerate action. I ate the mushrooms and, tl;dr, looked at my ridiculous "plight" with a sort of embarrassed acceptance.

That particular event was exceptionally difficult. It involved reliving trauma I'd been trying forget, feeling the shame and embarrassment of said trauma, and ultimately complete surrender and acceptance to that which is out of my control, which is to say, everything.

That "freedom in surrender/acceptance" epiphany lost some of its immediacy and weight after a while, but the message itself did not degrade with time. I don't stay in a state of acceptance and grace (ha), but I know that acceptance of self and society is available, no matter what. I am not a religious person, by the way, in case that matters.

I know what you mean by "rewire," but I don't think that term, widely used and accepted though it is, should be used to talk about something so complex and fragile as the brain/mind or however you juxtapose consciousness and experience.

I am just as guilty as anyone of using reductive machine analogies when talking about human things. Many would consider my self-experimentation risky and foolish, scary even. I agree? It's just that my life was much scarier before I started tinkering. It was certainly more risky.

Sorry for rambling. Thank you for the suggestion; I appreciate the thought and consideration. Your last sentence deserves emphasis ;)

I know what you mean by "rewire," but I don't think that term, widely used and accepted though it is, should be used to talk about something so complex and fragile as the brain/mind or however you juxtapose consciousness and experience.

The way I see it, "rewire" implies a substitute perspective, whereas what you're talking about is more about additional perspective.

Not "rewire", but open new neural pathways, and untangle others.

I had a friend with psychotic depression and it was the only thing that made him functional again. Effects would last for a week or two.

I have a childhood friend who now has schizophrenia. He is afraid of medication, so he currently just stays on cannabis all the time in a state where it’s legal.

(He has been medicated before, but his paranoia won’t let him now.)

He’s more stable, and while he does still believe his hallucinations/delusions of persecution, he is able to handle them better. I wonder how psilocybin would treat him.

I know psychosis is distinct from psychotic depression, but it seemed analogous.

Have you seen him before and after smoking up? Anecdotally (my own eyes) cannabis does not improve schizophrenia.

Interestingly, administering enough THC to a healthy adult will produce schizophrenia and psychosis type symptoms, while administering CBD to a psychotic person was found in one study to work as well as first-line antipsychotics (and with fewer side-effects).

Unfortunately almost all modern cannabis hybrids have been optimized for THC, such that the natural balance between the psychotic and antipsychotic elements has been completely lost. There are a few "CBD only" strains but they are quite rare.

It is possible to buy CBD oil however, made from non-psychoactive hemp. All things considered, CBD oil should be much more helpful to your friend than smoking, and less risky (both legally and psychologically).

> The FDA of the United States considers hemp oil (and it's derivative CBD) to be a dietary supplement (not a medication), since they are made from industrial hemp plants. If you live in the US, this means you don't need a prescription and can legally purchase and consume Cannabidiol in any state.

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional but this subject is very close to my heart.

I haven't seen him in a very long time. It doesn't treat the psychosis, as I mentioned, but it seems to help the anxiety and distress that it causes.

I don't know what balance of THC/CBD he chooses to consume. I think that if he smokes enough of anything besides THC-only strains, he should get some benefit from it. I should give him a call and inquire sometime. (I live on the opposite coast.)

I know that one can buy high-CBD strains in states where it's legal, and I would hope that he does. It's also possible that tolerance for the different psychoactives changes at different rates. If that's the case, he might have developed a tolerance to the THC faster than CBD. I have no empirical evidence behind this claim, but I just know he's doing okay. Or at least more so than he had been.

Head shop near me sells CBD isolate, and hemp (CBD ONLY) strains. Good luck to your friend.

Checkout the book Rethinking Madness by Dr. Paris Williams, this book saved my life by helping me understand psychosis and schizophrenia.

Are you experimenting with this? E.g. doing a very short sleep of 20 minutes to reduce safety hazards or sleeping longer but only when it is dark and wake up before sunrise?