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Look, a decent Yaesu costs 5x as much, and the Baofeng fully fulfills the role I recommended it for - which is to get a beginner started quickly. The entire point was that you don't need to take part in the pay to win game.

Noone said Baofengs are high-quality devices. But that's kind of the point, and it is easily good enough to get onto a local relay to get some easy satisfaction and practice the non-technical aspects (like: err, what did he say? and what am I supposed to say now?). Since it's only $35, I own one and have have used a couple of different models. I've done QSO's (connections) over repeaters around 25km away with these from rural but non-elevated positions without any problems. (Ok, I probably used an antenna that costs $10 extra.)

Besides, what's so interesting about 70cm/2m handhelds that makes getting an expensive one worth it anyway? Spending the money on a HF (around 3MHz-30MHz, often a bit more) transceiver seems like a much more interesting choice (long distance, antenna building, atmospheric conditions etc.). (This does not mean there are no interesting things to do on 70cm/2m. But even with a Baofeng you can e.g. work a satellite with the right antenna.)

Yes, you're relying on the superior equipment and position on the other end, but so what, if it works? Noone tells the QRP (low power) crowd to get an amplifier either, and certainly noone complains about the very crude DIY designs most people build. It's ok.

I have a drawer full of new ones so I can show newbies how bad they are. The three that I have all perform differently; they are the same model.

You got one that may perform closely to specification, but frustration for the newbie arrives when they get one that performs poorly....if at all. This is the norm for Baofeng equipment. So you might spend $35 a few times until you get one that works well, and then another $25 for an actual quality antennae ($10 one you have is 100% a counterfeit). Already, the newbie is down $95 and at this point probably not happy with their new hobby. If they do graduate to more interest, that pile of Baofeng gear will be wasted money in a drawer somewhere.

Also, Yaesu and they like are hardly Pay To Win as you say (whatever that means). $165 is small amount of money for something that will last many years and will function as designed and when needed.

Further, the point of radio gear is to communicate. Try using a Baofeng for anything anywhere important for any length of time, and you'll realize they are nothing more than toys and not suitable for the task.

I think your argument is sound, but what OP is trying to say is, it's a $30 radio- and so long as you don't expect it to perform as well as a $300 radio, then it's fine. I have three Baofengs and they all work spectacularly well, because I purposely purchased non-knockoff models.

For a beginner, who's not sure if it's worth the time and money investing $300 on a radio that might not be used, it's a very good idea to start with a $30 radio first.

As an aside, I feel that consistently denigrating people's choice for less expensive hardware is a very big barrier to the hobby's adoption.

I've had many people tell me that it's one of the things that turned them away from the hobby. Others that still stick around simply avoid discussing what type of radio they're using (not an easy task, when you're rag-chewing, mind) simply because they don't want to deal with these arguments.

Yeah, there's an attitude(you see it a lot WRT the digital modes) to be very dismissive if it wasn't the route you took or a part of the hobby that you care about.

It's a shame because I feel like there's a ton of groups of people(younger, more diverse backgrounds) that would be around if they weren't pushed out. I know a few really sharp people who build their own hardware but got chased off because their aspect of ham radio didn't involve contesting/etc.

> Besides, what's so interesting about 70cm/2m handhelds that makes getting an expensive one worth it anyway?

APRS, GPS. I love my Kenwood TH-D74 for hiking around. Before I had it I used a Baofeng UV-82 with a http://www.mobilinkd.com/ TNC paired to my phone with Bluetooth. Smart phones suck up battery, so it is a lot nicer to have APRS all in one unit that doesn't depend on a smart phone.

Does everyone need the bells and whistles? No, but depending on what you want there are some nice features.

I upgraded to the Kenwood TH-D74 from the Baofeng for the simple reason that i wanted the ability to actually specify a frequency that i hadn't pre-programmed when out in the field. Doing that on a baofeng is nigh-impossible. the APRS, GPS, and D-Star are just icing on the cake.

the Baofengs are cheap but absolutely suck when it comes to usability. With the Kenwood i can deploy to help our local CERT team, and not worry if they say "oh we changed the band plan... use this frequency" With the baofeng it was... "um... er.... well that sucks..."

Admittedly the Kenwood doesn't have a beginner friendly price but I don't know of any handheld that lets you type in a random frequency without wanting to kill yourself that IS cheap. I'd love to hear about it if anyone knows of one.

Contrats on moving to the Kenwood club! I don't know which Baofeng you have, but my UV-82 is easy. Switch to frequency mode and type in a frequency. I'm sure some of their other ones are different and worse. Entering a repeater isn't as fun, but simplex is simple.

> Look, a decent Yaesu costs 5x as much

Old timer says: My Kenwood (3 tube final amp) cost about $700 in 1978, so I'm a little amazed at modern pricing.

-- KA1BKM

Not an old timer says: at that price point I would never have bothered with the hobby. At the current price point I still buy very little. I have multiple hobbies all of which could take all my spare income if I let them. - K0COW

Adjusted for inflation, that $700 in 1978 is $2,661.15 in 2018 money.

The latest-and-greatest KENWOOD TS-990S is going for ~$7,979.95 (according to HRO)[1]

I'd say you got a deal back in the day. :)

[1] https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-011672

:) The TS-990S looks to be a smidgen better than my old Kenwood.

It took me a few minutes to remember: Mine was the TS 520, which listed at $600 according to eham. So even more of a bargain than I remember. (not like I paid for it. Thanks Dad. (But then again, it sent me down the giant rabbit hole of analog circuits and devices. Thanks for nothing Dad.) :)

https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5430

https://www.ebay.com/p/Kenwood-TS-520-Radio-Transceiver/1296...

Edit: Wow, just spent some time on the TS-990S site. The state of the art is really something to behold for someone who has not been very active in the past couple of decades.

I've got a TS-520 sitting on the desk next to me. It sounds great on receive but things get intimidating when it comes time to TX... so far I've only TX'd on my TS-570S.

Baofengs are terrible but they're cheap and extremely accessible. Also they provide enough room for experimentation with antennas and basic theory.

Not all equipment has to be the best equipment. Sometimes "OK" is enough.

Exactly. I picked up a slightly more expensive baofeng (UV-5X3) for my fist radio. Sured it's far from the greatest radio in the world (although it's leaps and bounds ahead of the UV-5R), but it gave me an inexpensive path forward. My only real complaint is that the included antenna is garbage for transmitting. So I built a cheap roll-up j-pole out of some old twinlead. The radio works quite well with that. I have since bought a signalstick antenna (j-poles aren't exactly portable), but that early experience building an antenna made me comfortable with doing more DIY radio projects.

The nagoya flexible antennas dramatically improve the functionality of the Baofeng HTs (particularly in 70cm). I have had zero trouble with the four or so I have loaned out or otherwise lost. That's the real beauty there, if you lose one it is frustrating but ultimately trivial compared to a yaesu or something.

The nagoya is often recommended for beginners with Baofengs. I got when when I was starting out and it is better than the stock antenna, but you have to worry about who is selling "real" ones and who has fakes.

Since then I've discovered these: https://signalstuff.com/product/super-elastic-signal-stick/ They are my go to antenna for HTs. I've never had one break, they perform great and they aren't too expensive. I love that I can take it off and tie it in a knot to shove into a small pocket in my backpack. Try that with a nagoya.

And closing the loop with some other comments in this thread, sales of the Super-Elastic Signal Stick help fund https://hamstudy.org/ which several people have highly recommended.

Those are very similar to the Nagoya NA-717, which I have on my UV-82. I love how flexible it is; I never worry about it, and like you can bend it way over while stuffing it in the backpack.

Yup, that's the signalstick that I bought. Great little piece of kit.

Yes, Baofengs are the bottom of the barrel, but they are an excellent way to get someone into the hobby. If they decide they don't care they are out $40 instead of hundreds. I only had Baofengs for a few years and was able to join in the rag chew on the local repeater.

Fast forward a few years and I've graduated to a Kenwood in my truck and a Kenwood HT with all the bells and whistles. Are they better? Of course they are, but the UV-82HP was plenty to get started with.

Doesn't Icom make an entry-level 2m radio anymore?

I have an Icom sitting around somewhere that I am pretty sure I got brand-new for under $100 back in 2004-2005. It's pretty primitive, sure, and I don't think it even came with a rechargeable battery at that price (but you can drop eneloops into it and it's just fine), but I suspect it doesn't produce nearly as much QRM as a Baofeng.

If Icom/Yaesu have stopped making entry level radios, shame on them.

Dunno, pretty commonly I see reviews where cheap baofeng's reach repeaters better than more expensive Yaesu radios. Personally my ft-70dr doesn't hit distant repeaters as well as my baofeng. Is it a nicer radio in many ways, but not particularly good for distant repeaters. The yaesu does seem better in noisy environments though.

The menu system is MUCH harder to use and MUCH more inconsistent. Drives me nuts that when you find a menu, spin the selector to make a selection, to select you hit the PTT, sometimes you hit f, sometimes you hit V/M. Worse is often the manual doesn't even mention that part.

I see your point, but the argument is that if you're just getting started, $30 is a much easier pill to swallow.

As for your tests on the Baofengs, I'd be interested to see your sources and the exact models tested.

As a counterpoint: Here's a video of an Official Baofeng UV-5R being stress tested, and demonstrating how resilient the front-end is: https://youtu.be/KqVq2G9dY5Q

I don't think that a Yaesu HT would continue working after running without an antenna, but I wouldn't want to try it myself.

Check out some of their newer hardware. The UV-5X3 doesn't have the spurious emissions problem common in previous models.

Granted, the included antenna is garbage. I ended up building a j-pole and picking up a signalstick for mine. It works quite well with both.