Hacker News Reader

Comment by Roritharr | Hacker News Reader

The crypto space to me is really frustrating. I've seen friends become something very close to scammers, I can't have interesting technical discussions about the topic without being called doomsayer and even when I pitch an idea what to use the Blockchain for, all I get is:"let's do an ICO and raise a shitton of money!" although that doesn't really make sense towards what I'm proposing.

I feel like the nerd in class that hopes that the teacher (regulatory bodies) will pinch those bullies so we can get back to topic. I hate that feeling.

View on HN

I had a conversation with a guy creating a crypto startup recently. It only took five minutes in before the thin veneer of an actual business model fell away and the real motive—free money—starting coming out.

His position, distilled: if people are stupid enough to give me money, who am I to say no?

I suggested his easy money might not be so easy if (for US investors) the SEC, FTC, CFTC, etc. crack down and claw back investor money. Maybe that's fine if you've become hugely profitable in that time, but if you haven't...

> if (for US investors) the SEC, FTC, CFTC, etc. crack down and claw back investor money

A counter argument I saw first on Hacker News and then in real life approximates “decentralised currencies make it impossible for governments to enforce laws.” (Obviously wrong, shockingly so, but appears to be a meme in the crypto community.)

And in a similar vein the "we no longer need to pay taxes" crowd.

These idiots don't realize they're the ones begging the regulators to crush their dreams and bury them in paperwork, fines, fees, and red tape.

It reminds me very much of 1998/1999. 9 out of 10 "startups" at that point were outright scams and they barely even tried to hide it.

Same goes for the crypto space these days. It was sad to watch in tech 20 years ago, and sad to watch now.

I agree with your friend. Dumb people will give away their money anyway. Might as well give it to me. What's wrong with free money as long as I'm not doing illegal stuff.

Morals, ethics?

If investors are giving money based on lies, there’s a legal system in place to help them recover failed fraudulent investments. I’d wager in many cases investors know exactly what they’re investing in. So I don’t see any ethical/moral conflicts in a lot of these BS cryptocurrency schemes, just a lot of wasted potential and a somewhat shameful divergence from the idealistic core tech - private, trustless transactions through a decentralized blockchain (bitcoin).

Stunned by that comment. Stunned.

I almost didn’t write it and knew I’d be downvoted. Many folk that hang around HN are very idealistic myself included. My main point is that you shouldn’t feel sorry for cryptocurrency investors; many know exactly what they’re gambling on. Easy money and BS “tech innovation” being used to grab portions of that cash pile is the reality I see. What’s your opinion of the mkt?

> My main point is that you shouldn’t feel sorry for cryptocurrency investors; many know exactly what they’re gambling on.

This category is broader than you imagine and now includes unsophisticated individuals who can't tell the difference between the blockchain and a bike chain. Lately, I've been hearing a lot of "invest in bitcoin" talk from people who are not well-informed, and do not know what they are gambling on. What's illegal for penny stocks should be equally illegal for cryptocurrency - the Feds should crack the whip.

It's not hard to understand the high risk, high reward investment principle. There are plenty of safe index funds, blue chip stocks, and bonds available to retail investors/unsophisticated individuals. It's not difficult to understand that cryptocurrencies are highly speculative. I would never advise my parents to buy bitcoin, ethereum, or any other cryptocurrency without adding the caveat that they be prepared to lose everything in an exchange hack or some other shady behavior.

I can understand the need for the SEC to protect investors when it comes to investment into traditional companies - regular people can't read a 10k and don't sit in on analyst calls that are mandated for public companies registered with the SEC. But if you're investing in an unregulated, highly risky asset, where you don't understand any of the assets or technology the company owns...come on man.

> But if you're investing in an unregulated, highly risky asset,

A lot of people are about to find out that cryptocurrencies are, in fact, regulated. It's weird to see some techies agree with the idea that "pedestrian thing, on a computer" patents are invalid (because the "on a computer" bit is irrelevant), but when it comes to "fraud/misrepresentation on a computer", then it suddenly needs to be legally special-cased as somehow different. Intangible/abstracted assets predate cryptocurrencies - there's nothing new about crypto in the eyes of the law.

Choosing not to be a completely unethical scumbag isn’t idealism, it’s the baseline.

It’s not the baseline in cryptocurrency, and my point is both the ICOing companies and investors are in on the game so nobody is fooling one another. I don’t have the stomach to spew BS for money so I’m not involved in the ecosystem. But I think you need to be a bit more realistic and not view investors as just a class of people that are being ripped off - most, especially bigger/institutional are savvy with their money.

It is genuine, I appreciate your comments though. The comment I found depressing as it highlights (to me at least) the erosion of what was a community/culture I respected.

Perhaps I'm just an old fool.

EDIT : Just to say I've ensured my email is in my bio now.

probably because being legal is not a sufficient condition for being ethical

A lot of my ideas for blockchain technology work a lot better using ETH for example, rather than yet another token. I think we'll need to wait a few months/years before the ICO craze dies down and we can get back to focusing on building tech on top of Bitcoin/Ethereum without the word ICO.

My ideas tend to be the same. I don't see any reason not to go ahead and build them.

Humans can be kind of money motivated. Such is life. For me one of the interesting things with crypto is whether you can use that for something positive in society.

...the greatest conqueror in history, a conqueror possessed of extreme tolerance and adaptability, thereby turning people into ardent disciples. This conqueror is money.

from Sapiens: https://books.google.com/books/about/Sapiens.html?id=FmyBAwA...

Definitely in my top ten list. The text is life-changing.

Don't worry free market will sort it out eventually. Dump money will run out after a few big project failures. Investors will be more sophisticated. It's a new market and what's happening now is natural, it's the same as dot-com bubble. Smart regulators can help free market to get rid of dishonest projects. But the common problems with regulators is that they are not smart and they are slow to fix their mistakes if they ever acknowledge them. Bad regulation can kill the market.

Mentioning the "free market" in any other context than a joke will make most people not take your post seriously.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com