Hacker News Reader

Comment by mantas | Hacker News Reader

> And Germany and Sweden have people from Romania begging on the streets, since they're part of a group of people that have been historically (and currently are) mistreated in their homeland.

Gypsies is a wee of a special case tbh. They've a very weird honor system that makes it hard to integrate them. We're trying to do that for decades and results are mediocre so far. I've heard crazy stories from people working at NPOs with them.

The only thing we didn't try yet is forcibly taking away children and putting them in boarding schools. I know it sounds terrible, but those people just don't want to integrate. Which is why may look mistreated. But in reality it's vice versa - they mistreat anyone else around them.

Of course, some gypsies do drop that way of life and integrate. But then they just look like normal citizen. Thus there're little "good gypsies".

View on HN

What you describe is pure fascism. And for the elders, maybe we should build camps to hold them?

I hear a lot about how this or that part of the population "doesn't integrate". What I never hear about is why it's so important they integrate.

To start, I think (hope!) the parent didn't suggest that taking children is a good idea. Either human decency should stop that, or at least reading about Australian history... And I assume the grandparent posts were both about Roma people, not Romanians.

Why it's important that the part of population integrates is because countries extend both rights and expectations to people. Groups of a specific culture that settle in an area and refuse to live under local laws are a problem. Because child/teen marriages are a problem. Because forcing children to beg for the families is a problem. Because living in conditions where large groups rely on begging is a problem. Etc.

How can we say some parents are guilty of child abuse while other parents are just not integrating?

That's a good point, there's indeed a problem with mafia-like behavior in Rroma groups. Don't just assume they all rely on begging, though, we see a lot of them in seasonal agriculture, and they make good money there.

Regarding difference between rights and expectations, there are two layers, there. There is the laws that apply to anyone with the rights that apply to anyone, and the laws that apply to citizen and the rights that apply to citizen (which rromas are not, most of the time). I'm not a lawyer, but I would tend to think the laws most often apply to everyone and the rights most often apply to citizen, except for basic decency. There's an exception regarding the laws : when a law makes mandatory for a child to go to school, it is usually only about citizens' children.

Now, we could certainly ask more of those people to disband mafias and enforce human rights. But I'm not under the impression it's what we try to do, in europe. What I see most of the time is attempts to push them away and to hell with them.

We deal with Romas here in Lithuania for decades. Most of them are citizens. Although I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were never reported to be born and have no papers..

We tried all kinds of things. Yes, we tried to get their kids to go to school. We trie to build a police outpost in their village, burned in a week :) There're NPOs working specifically with them. The only problem is lack of will on their end.

As for your upper level comment, we can either leave them as outcasts' clan or make then integrate. In their current shape, they clash with modern society too much. Stealing, begging, dealing drugs, living in unregistered shacks, squatting public parks while keeping children away from education is what put them into their position in the first place. Either we look them up for all felonies they do or they have to learn to live with the rest of us. Their "special" way of life is not something that can continue and be respected in any way.

Well, I don't know much about Lithuania, maybe it's paradise on earth, but I assure you that here in France and in most of the world, stealing, begging and dealing drugs also happens in "integrated" populations :) But I hear you, Rromas are often linked to that, and it doesn't help.

Regarding the "way of life", I find it funny it's considered a problem while I know so many friends, who nobody would say they are not integrated, who live just the same. They do seasonal winter work in tourism in mountains, seasonal summer work at beaches, and travel in between with their home/truck to visit friends and family, or just visit new places. I know three of them who have been living that way for 15 years, and nobody finds anything to say about it (except parents, of course, who would like to see them have "a real job").

Are you sure, deep inside, there is absolutely no problem of racism implied in your problems with rromas? (no need to answer this question, that's more something to ask to yourself)

The difference is when it's a percent or 5 of population. Or when it's vast majority of that population.

In general population, we just lock them up, try to isolate from old friends and get their life back on track. For gypsies, their whole culture is immersed in that. We can either change their culture or leave them as-is. But if we leave them as-is, they stay outcasts. And then we get blamed for not integrating them :)

Racism in what way? That we don't want to let gypsies live in antisocial ways? I confident I don't have any problems with gypsies as long as they live like productive members of society. And I hate stealing drug-dealing scums equally no matter what their ethnicity or culture is.

If a gypsy gets clean and wants to join the society, nothing stops them. If a gypsy comes in regular clothes, it'd be hard to tell them someone is a gypsy and not just darker skin.

Of course, it's easiest to use racism card all the time. But sometimes the problem is the unfortunate culture.

I'm not sure your examples are comparable. It's different for an individual to live a nomadic lifestyle vs. a group.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com