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Comment by reificator | Hacker News Reader

> If this is the future of tech work, then I guess I'd better find another career--perhaps gardening or wood-working?

Exactly. I can't imagine working in an environment like that.

You don't want to hear me playing Smooth by Neil Cicierega[1], and I don't want to hear you playing rap.

A work environment is not the place to be playing music for everyone around you. Constant generic music is the worst part of retail, and that's saying something.

If your goal is to foster creativity and productivity, but all I hear is thump-thump-thump drilling into my head, I'm not going to be either. Even when it's music I love (or music I love working to) I'll still pause it when I'm trying to really understand what's going on in a complex system.

[1]: https://youtu.be/8D-WVlRohQk

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Also alcohol flowing at work? I’m no teetotaler but isn’t that a recipe for trouble? Assuming we’re not just talking about sharing a few beers after hours. I’ve worked with people who drank on the job to the point where they were working totally shitfaced, and it’s not pretty. If they’re meeting with other teams or customers, they’re going to be an embarrassment, and if they’re checking in code... let’s not even go there. Not to mention how Silicon Valley is now all wrapped around the axle in “harassment this” and “inclusion that” and sexual bad behavior and so on. I doubt alcohol would help with any of that. Just seems like an overall bad idea.

Drinking at work is one of the absolutely worst traits of tech. Not only is it totally unprofessional, but things like ‘Friday beers’ are actually presented by companies as a benefit, and you face major social and professional consequences for not participating. It’s obscene.

Every company offering "friday beer" I've worked at also offered the beer for free and up to an hour of extra paid break. Drinking the beer was never an obligation and there's always non-alcoholic alternatives.

This gave us an opportunity to meet with all the other teams / departments.

Sure, I would rather be at my local microbrewery drinking stout with my friends rather than drink cheap pilsner at work but it has its benefits. There is no way I would have been as close to those people if not for this paid social time.

It also helps the work. Very often people would vent about their projects and other coworkers would listen and come up with quick solutions to their issues. "Oh yeah, X software is a pain in the ass. Did you try doing Z? I had to work with that software at my previous job and doing Z always helped!".

Even in those cultures, I've never ever seen an employer allowing anyone to drink during the rest of the week. Now that would be obscene.

Yea, there is a huge difference between “Beer Friday night after work is done” and “Second Bottle of Wine Tuesday morning.” I’ve seen both.

There is no way I would have been as close to those people if not for this paid social time.

One of the worst aspects IMHO of the US working culture is the blurring of the working/personal divide. Because the consequence is the semi-permanent working state of mind.

Don't get me wrong, I like to get along with my colleagues. But they're that, colleagues, not friends. These events only perpetuate the working vibe and merge it with the after-working-hours.

Don't get me wrong. By close I mean that we can have a chat when we stumble on each others in front of the coffee machine. I've only ever met a handful of my coworkers outside of work hour... and it was for happy hour at a bar or for a team BBQ.

You know what I don't like about "Friday beers" in the workplace? It's not the beers. It's the fact that it's a company-scheduled and company-sanctioned event. The company is trying to (pick your favorite interpretation)...

...paternalistically manage our social lives

...tone-deafly intrude on them

...desperately be a part of them

...co-opt something cool and make it corporate

...do the adult equivalent of turning children's unstructured play time into a scheduled, paid-for playdate/lessons/"extracurriculars"

I'll pick and choose my friends and invite them to beers myself. In a bar. Away from the company offices. So we can talk shit about the management and people we don't like! What fun is life without the hating? (Well whatever, I just betrayed myself as a Gen Xer by being so forthright and gauche as to admit that I recreationally hate on people.)

My employer is not my friend. My friends, I will defend if they're in trouble for the next 40 years. My employer, I will ditch at the very first sign they're in trouble, or making trouble for me. Therefore I think maintaining a separation of "work life" from the private realm is appropriate. Of course, the more your "work is your life," and/or the more the company is actually yours, this applies less. But even in that case I would still recommend a healthy (hygienic) separation of concerns just like with any software system.

>So we can talk shit about the management and people we don't like!

Heh, at my last job we always went out to a pub for some burgers and beer on Fridays. 75% of the conversation revolved around exactly this. I found it an important way to decompress and let off steam.

I'll gladly face those consequences. I don't drink. You're not going to pressure me into drinking. You're sure as hell not going to threaten my livelihood for not drinking and then act like I'm the one in the wrong.

I drink. I like Friday beers. I absolutely stamp down on any of my team who attempt to pressure others to drink or ostracise others in the company for not drinking. Friday beers is meant to help colleagues bond, so behavior that excludes some people or makes them want to leave isn't OK.

Luckily the companies I've worked at have all been non-drinker friendly as well as drinker friendly. There's always a non-alcoholic option and they've usually tried to make sure people knock off a little early so that anyone with kids etc can join in before they have to leave.

Friday beers is something that can exclude people, though, even if they're not being pressured to drink. Alcohol is a sort of culturally fraught thing that's important to some people, but for others - members of some religious groups, recovering alcoholics, and victims of drinking-related abuse come to mind - simply being in the presence of someone who's consuming alcohol can be an uncomfortable experience.

I don't think that companies are under any obligation to avoid having traditions like Friday beers altogether, but, if you're looking to be inclusive, you should probably strive to ensure that there are also plenty of social activities where there is no alcohol present.

If you want to think like that, so do morning coffees, someone eating chicken for lunch and someone on a diet! Seriously, some adult thinking needs to be in place. I know several people with alcohol problems, devout Muslims and an abuse victim. Here's a hint, other people drinking isn't a problem for them. That's a part of life and they're mature enough to accept it. Sounds like the person you're replying to has plenty of inclusiveness, no reason to stop everyone elses enjoyment for the sake of the possibility that someone's not matured enough to accept it.

But not everyone is like you. Some people will have negative consequences for it, and some will miss out on opportunities for it, and they plain shouldn't.

No I'm not supporting it, I'm saying I stand against it.

Boring farts.

I enjoy being able to wind down and have beers the last couple of hours on a friday (in companies that have allowed it). I organise my workload so there is nothing difficult to do then anyway.

I prefer to wait until the work day has finished and then go to the pub and have a beer or two. I don't really understand the appeal of drinking at work (which seems more prevalent in US), surrounded by office equipment and computers, it's not really relaxing. Plus there might be people still in the office at 5pm who actually have something important to do and it's not really fair that they then have to try to work with people getting pissed up 10 feet away.

If everyone is complaining about their office being too noisy, how can an even noisier pub be more relaxing than that?

Aren't people complaining that their office is too noisy to work in? I wouldn't be going to the pub to work, rather to relax and have a beer and a chat. For the record I'm talking about a traditional, "old man" pub where I can get a nice pint of ale and a table, not some trendy place full of office workers.

Well, they're not trying to work there...

You're asking why people are OK with a noisy pub but not a noisy office? Surely you can see the difference if you try.

The difference I see is that a relaxing drink in a less noisy office would be more relaxing than the same drink in a more noisy pub

You show me any company with beer on tap, and I'll show you a company that I will run over if we are competing against each other.

Ah, said like a classic startup bro who really doesn't realize how badly he's getting screwed on equity yet.

Such brash optimism and such little appreciation for the pleasures of life beyond winning.

Some people have different views of what work should be. Don’t need to start name calling.

Google? Facebook?

I've already beaten them out in some niche markets where we went head to head, so, yes.

It's funny you consider this running them over. I'm sure from their perspective you are hardly a blip on the radar.

I just ran over AWS by hosting my mom's webpage with 40% uptime.

You are assuming a lot, but whatever you need to believe will work for you, so I'm sure you are set.

Yeah, you're right. Sorry I came off as condescending, I probably shouldn't have said anything.

Drinking Beer takes the edge off the massive amounts of adderall pumping through my veins after working 15 hours straight

Kill your body, make profit for company.

And yourself. Lots of people kill their bodies for a lot less than what a software developer makes.

Not that it makes it alright that anyone has to do that, but I keep that in mind so I don’t lose perspective.

Just wait until your 30 and all this really starts to hit you. Tremors, heart problems, and a sudden realization you're no longer invincible.

Comments like your remind me how fortunate I am work with 'adults' at my current company. We don't micro-manage anyone, and only look at results. People who can't handle the responsibility side of freedom are let go, and the rest of us have an amazing amount of freedom to do interesting work. We even have beer in the refrigerator that people occasionally partake in.

Maybe you work for a video game company?

I find this standpoint unacceptable in environments that manage PHI PII or anything else involving people's privacy or financials.

I get your point about the "I'm mature and experienced enough to know when a beer is appropriate" angle. Maybe I'm old fashioned but my dedication to my work goes beyond things like test coverage it goes into the details of how I conduct myself talk and dress when I'm the clock.

I dont want to drive over a bridge or fly on a plane designed by people who dont take a similar level of seriousness to being on the clock.

Not to mention beer tastes better when youre not in front of your flatcreen staring at code. Something to be said for being present in the moment.

> Maybe I'm old fashioned but my dedication to my work goes beyond things like test coverage it goes into the details of how I conduct myself talk and dress when I'm the clock.

I agree with you, and I work with people who think similarly. No one is drinking during the day or getting drunk at work even though there is beer in the refrigerator. I was responding directly to the parent comment about seeing people drunk at work. That's completely unacceptable.

> I dont want to drive over a bridge or fly on a plane designed by people who dont take a similar level of seriousness to being on the clock.

I would be much more worried about lack of sleep leading to issues[1] than if someone had an occasional beer at the end of the day.

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissette-calveiro/studies-sho...

I've been to many "beer flowing" companies and every time it was reserved for the Friday extra paid break. Those taps are there to offer quality beer at a low cost during happy hour on Friday when there's no more work to be done for the day.

I find it hard to believe that any company would allow daytime drinking.

> I find it hard to believe that any company would allow daytime drinking.

Allow? In some cultures a beer or glass of wine at lunch is perfectly normal. There is also a big difference between having a beer and downing a 6-pack.

I personally would avoid a beer at lunch because it makes me tired, but I wouldn't think much of it if someone had a beer with their lunch.

Beer at lunch is fine with me. Beer at the keyboard is where things gets weird.

(Unless it's friday evening and your are working hard while everyone else is at the special beer break.)

Where I work we have beer on tap. People are free to drink whenever and the occasional person will grab a beer with their lunch but peer pressure and not wanting to be drunk while at work means most people won't drink during work hours and it's used mostly after-hours or on weekends.

If it ever became a problem or someone got shitfaced I'm sure we'd see restrictions put into place quite quickly.

It's mostly for show, like the proverbial dust-covered xbox.

And not to mention general sleep and mood issues. It doesn't take many days in a row with a couple evening beers for me to get cranky. I'm sure alcohol affects everyone differently, but "flowing" just sounds like a recipe for mass irritability.

Agreed. I don't drink, I don't mind if you drink, even in public. But please, not at work.

San francisco has a rampant alcohol culture. I never drink as much as I do in SF.

You don't have to be a teetotaler to hate that. Just think how often they clean those taps. (One startup that I worked in Chicago would be closed down by the health department becuase they never did)

Drinking in general is a really bad idea. I use it as a good and clear signal for who not to associate with, personally and professionally. I am all for having more opportunities for drunkards to expose themselves.

So, if I were to invite you home and offer you a glass of Glenmorangie (Scotch) or Suntory (Japanese Whiskey), that would make me a drunkard? What about a nice glass of finely aged wine? Please, don't limit your worldview to stereotypes...

What in my comment suggested to you that I believe that one glass of scotch or wine makes one a drunkard?

Drunkard here, nice to meet you. I think it’s a bit unfair to pass judgement on such a human tradition as consuming alcohol. All things in moderation, as they say.

There's only going to be one kind of music in my coworking space, bagpipe music https://open.spotify.com/track/1bUM4KAW0426M6uELs43lm?si=ihC... .

> Constant generic music is the worst part of retail, and that's saying something.

And getting away from the front-of-house area saturated by muzak doesn't promise much relief, because in the employees-only areas of any blue-collar workplace it's a near-certainty you'll find an FM boombox playing absolutely the worst top-40 station within range. There was a NYT article from a few months ago saying 'employers are starting to play music for their staff, what do we think of this?', basically an enormous shibboleth announcing that none of the people involved had ever worked for minimum wage in their lives.

Many years ago, I worked on the production floor of a print shop. (I wasn't actually doing print work. I was a designer, but they hadn't built out the offices yet, so my Mac was literally sitting on a desk in the middle of the print room floor.)

Do you know how loud "Butterfly Kisses" — apparently the #1 through #40 top song during the time I was doing this — has to be cranked to make it audible over a web-fed offset printer and cutter? I do.

This is totally tangent to the coworking discussion - but honestly mouth moods is a work of art and Neil is a genius. If anyone hasn't heard it, play T.I.M.E.[0] its really unexpectedly good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsoCe7C4Kmk

I only recently realized that he's also Lemon Demon, who wrote and performed The Ultimate Showdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WgT9gy4zQA

He's also responsible for the Potter Puppet Pals videos, and the Guide to Lord of the Rings/Star Trek/Star Wars races and characters. Neil Cicierega is a hero and treasure of the Internet.

T.I.M.E. is a favorite of mine when listening to Mouth Moods straight through. But I can't have it in my shuffled playlists like I can with Smooth or Wow Wow.

It's like Love Psych. Great idea, great execution, but not something I can listen to very often.

I do like how it brings out the message the Village People intended though. You have to really try to hear what they're saying in the original.

I actually extracted it out manually and added it to my Spotify because it wasn't posted. Works just fine.

I would like to hear both but not at work(I feel like saying you only like one genre is saying you only like one style of food). I would like absolute dead silence at work because that's when I do my best work; hence why I like to work from home 90% of the time.

> (I feel like saying you only like one genre is saying you only like one style of food)

Is the implication that I said that?

Otherwise agreed, silence is great. I find my concentration varies throughout the day, and when I'm most focused I prefer silence. When I'm least focused, music helps bump me up to a productive level. And in the middle, it can go either way.

> Smooth by Neil Cicierega

Well... there went my evening... a youtube playlist and a wikipedia article later... plus a rewatch of Potter Puppet Pals...

That's one oddly talented dude.

I think that song has increased my productivity 150%.

That's why I like it, but I think you can agree that it's not universal music that everyone would enjoy. Which is (half of) why I wear headphones at work.

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