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Comment by 3pt14159 | Hacker News Reader

I know it sounds strange, but if you can make it through the first month or two of not using body soap or shampoo regularly you'll be better off in all ways. You won't need styling product for your hair, it will have a natural oil that works. You won't need deodorants or perfumes. And, if you can switch to cold showers, you won't need to use moisturizers either.

I know 10 or 15 minute cold showers are less pleasant, but they wake you up and make the rest of the winter less hellish. I actually love the cold at this point.

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While I don't recommend this daily hygiene plan, for the doubters on HN there is some research into this which does not conflict with the parent's statements.

According to a variety of authorities, body odor is the result of bacterial interaction with sweat and oil excretions of the body. The medical name for severe body odor is bromhidrosis. But the key is that there is an interaction between the microbiome in the area around your sweat glands, and your sweat that causes the odor.

Anthropologists studying primitive peoples have found many cases of people who do not bathe regularly and yet do not smell either. A group at MIT did some studies with repopulating the microbiome with ammonia consuming bacteria from soil as a way of avoiding body odor without washing. And the folks at the Microbiome project cultivated a bunch of microbiomes from people's arm pits and thighs which also informed this area (although there isn't really a pro-biotic deodorant that I know of yet)

As I understand it, showering and washing isn't getting rid of "odor" it is getting rid of bacteria that is outgassing odor after processing your sweat. You could be odor free without showering with the right bacteria consuming the sweat.

I’d guess that diet and genetics play huge roles, and those are two factors which are likely to be different for primitive people’s.

https://motherdirt.com/

Until we can control the microbiomes at will whe trick is that it's very hard to tell if you are one of the people who won't smell bad if you skip the soap and deodorant, or if you're one of the people who will. Especially if you're single. :)

Personally I've found I don't need a ton of soap, can get by without deodorant if not especially active, and can skip shampoo most days but do need conditioner and aggressive rubbing it in/scalp self-massage to avoid dandruff.

need conditioner and aggressive rubbing it in/scalp self-massage to avoid dandruff.

Curious: Does conditioner help you avoid dandruff? Any explanation as to how it does?

Oops, that was unclear.

The conditioner helps with styling it / keeping it feeling smooth and pliable. Especially since I still shampoo once or twice a week for additional dandruff control, which wipes out some of the natural oils.

The aggressive rubbing is the part that does the daily dandruff control. Seems to exfoliate the dead skin.

If true, where did sailors get the bad rap about being "smelly foreigners" come from?

never took a bath?

Attempt at preventing them from getting at the ladies I'm town?

Different diets cause foreigners to smell differently and different is often ‘bad’.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deodorant#Overview) it is more a matter of not having bacteria than of having the right ones. It says that washing and shaving one’s armpits are contributing factors to having bacterial colonies, and, hence, smelly armpits:

”When adult armpits are washed with alkaline pH soap, the skin loses its acid mantle (pH 4.5 - 6), raising the skin pH and disrupting the skin barrier. As many bacteria thrive in this elevated pH environment, this makes the skin susceptible to bacterial colonization. […] Underarm hair wicks the moisture away from the skin and aids in keeping the skin dry enough to prevent or diminish bacterial colonization. The hair is less susceptible to bacterial growth and therefore is ideal for preventing the bacterial odor.”

I think deodorant mostly is an example of capitalism creating demand where none exists.

> I think deodorant mostly is an example of capitalism creating demand where none exists.

That’s the most foolish thing I’ve read in a long time.

When I was growing up, I was a bit stubborn regarding use of soap and deodorant: I pretty much refused to use anything but water to shower, and never used deodorant (or any other topical substance, for that matter).

That approach worked just great, until I hit puberty... Trust me, if you think nobody needs deodorant just as long as you don’t use soap (or some other such nonsense), I am the living proof of just how extremely far from the truth you are.

Of course, many people out there will never need deodorant (genetics play a large part here, according to some studies I’ve read). There may even be some microbiological technology we can find to cure body odor in alternate ways. But to assume that deodorant is a universally needless product (in favor of not using soap) is incredibly naive, or nearsighted.

I’ll save responding to your random derision of capitalism for another debate.

>That approach worked just great, until I hit puberty... Trust me, if you think nobody needs deodorant just as long as you don’t use soap (or some other such nonsense), I am the living proof of just how extremely far from the truth you are.

oh, middle school... i can certainly attest to your experience.

> Of course, many people out there will never need deodorant

Many? The only ethnicity that does not have that is asians IIRC, they lack a certain gene for body odor. So i think it's really everyone but them.

I always heard that it was deodorant manufacturers that made body odor socially unacceptable, not that they body odor didn't exist before deodorant.

It's not surprising at all that widespread, cheap, effective means to reduce body odor would make it less socially acceptable to have body odor.

There are many unpleasant aspects of being human that we tolerate, because we have no other choice. Through time, technology is created that helps us deal with more and more of these things. That's only natural, and good.

Anthropologists studying primitive peoples have found many cases of people who do not bathe regularly and yet do not smell either.

I was homeless for nearly six years. The last couple, I showered about once a month most of the time. No, I did not stink to high heaven.

I actually smelled worse when I had a corporate job and showered twice a day because I was extremely ill. I smelled worse when I was first homeless and showering daily at a women's shelter because I was still ill.

As I gradually got healthier on the street, my hair got less greasy and other things changed. This is why the advice that you just need to get through the first month doesn't necessarily generalize. These changes occurred gradually over the course of several years as my own microbiome, nutritional status and other metrics changed.

A guy at work come from a different culture and don't put on deodorant and I can smell him every time he walks near me. I guess he doesn't smell his own odor because he got used to it, but other people notice.

In the same way, sometimes, when the trashcan is full, I don't really notice the smell until I leave the house, breathe the outside air and come back inside after. Then it hit me.

Also, how can one really clean his ass crack without soap? Water alone is definitely not enough.

Not trying to sound mean with this suggestion, and I know it’s easier said than done, but have you considered telling him?

It will be awkward, but walking around smelling is going to hurt him in all areas of his life.

It takes a bit of something-something in terms of communications, which I probably lack. I once asked a person (nicely, I thought) with BO, loud chewing, and unfettered burping to reconsider and he started screaming at me instead. Be careful, is all I can say.

This is what the human resources department is for.

If a few people mention it, they will have to do something. And you don't have to risk getting yelled at.

Yep, exactly.

We had a guy at a previous job of mine (food service) who (almost certainly) didn't wear deodorant and it became an HR issue.

His roommate (who also worked with us) said he did shower.

Showered every day?

Unless the person in question had a medical condition... I find this very hard to believe. There are a lot of cultures where people don't use deodorant but wash every day (and more if doing sports etc... And it's not an issue).

Morning, evening or both?

I wish I had done that but getting HR involved seemed like the nuclear option to me, especially for something the person may not have known about. I had approached the team manager but he, in spite of frequent rants about the evils of political correctness, didn't wish to act since he thought it was due to what he called 'culture'. Unpleasant business all around.

I loved the technology and product at that workplace but such awkward situations ensured that I moved on as quickly as I got the opportunity to do so.

HR doesn't punish him, they talk to him about it and why its a problem.

I worked at a big corporation. It was against the rules to comment on body odor of a coworker because of an incident where the team got together to give someone perfume and soap and such and try to nicely tell her she smelled. Turned out she had a medical condition and it was not a hygiene issue and she was incredibly upset. HR sided with her.

Got one such colleague, and she farts all day too... I can live with it but some are getting mad :-)

Well, to be honest with you, I don't really know how to tell him. Perhaps it would be easier if we came from the same culture, but we don't and I don't want to sound patronizing or anything.

>Well, to be honest with you, I don't really know how to tell him.

To both you and abawany: maybe just send a polite, anonymous email (make a one time use gmail or something)? Like a personal version of the public service whistleblower, this is the sort of situation that seems like a good fit. A simple "Hey, I see you fairly regularly and..." type of thing, that they're a nice person and you're worried they might not notice this and don't want them to be embarrassed.

I do agree that a (perceived) lack of personal hygiene can hamper people in subtle ways socially and in turn professionally, and it's possible that they could never realize why. If they're a decent enough person that's a real shame, and a quick equivalent of "Your fly is unzipped" could be a real benefit long term.

This is a great idea and I like this anonymous approach. Thanks!

IMO this is one of the worst suggestions.

Imagine you get an email from anonymous person at your workplace. This is about as awkward for workplace culture as it gets. Knowing that there is some guy a) who thinks that you stink, and b) who is not man enough to actually talk to you and instead sends an anonymous message, and c) you have to continue to work with that person, d) but you don't know who it is. Any of your coworkers could be that socially challenged person afraid to talk openly and taking such a ridiculous route.

Either you find the guts to and talk about it openly or you let it slide. I'd much prefer you take the first route. I consider this part of being an adult. It's only awkward if you make it so in the first place.

> b) who is not man enough to actually talk to you

Not man enough, seriously? So are women exempt from this sort of direct confrontation?

There are plenty of good reasons to not talk about it "openly", one of the most important being that it takes skill to do it well.

> Not man enough, seriously? So are women exempt

Wow, you are seriously crazy. May I point out that your perception first of all is the result of your own brain? It is you yourself who has those ideas in their head - i did not write any of it, you found it in yourself.

As for part two of your fantastic rant, I refer back to what I wrote. You merely restate what was already said and what I responded to. Repetition does not make the argument any better.

Please don't make HN worse by responding to a bad comment with a worse one, and please don't break the site guidelines by crossing into incivility like this—let alone personal attack, which we ban users for.

If you'd read the following, and take the spirit of this site to heart when commenting here, we'd appreciate it:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

I will always call idiots idiots. I don't care about this site's policies in any case, since the random downvoting (and I really mean the RANDOM downvoting, not the few times when it's obviously bad comments) is far, FAR too prevalent - AND on top of that, when some time ago with another account I upvoted a few such comments that were donwvoted for no valid reason at all you called me a "troll" for "upvoting controversial comments". That is when I lost all respect for you and your site. That's what learning that the admin is a dumb piece of shit (dumb because... that was just DUMB) does.

Ok, since you clearly don't want to use HN as intended, we've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break the site rules with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

No, this is a terrible idea. I'm a social idiot and even I know this is lobbing a grenade!

Read Crucial Conversations maybe. I'm sure that would help both of you.

to answer you question, with water and your fingers, right? i wash with soap, but i don't put soap up my ass, (or on my face, or in my eyes...)

I mean, giving yourself a month or two to get used to your own stink is lovely and all.. but what about the rest of us who still have to smell you?

Personally, I find the fragrances of personal care products far more offensive than the smell of a recently showered person without fragrances. It’s not my preference about the odor, it’s my reaction to the dozens of secret synthetic chemicals that they create the fragrance with. Essential oils are better, but still offensive and cause me various unpleasant symptoms and feelings.

Drugstore brands such as Axe, Old Spice and Irish Spring are absolutely terrible. I'm currently using Dr Bronner's castile soap (eucalyptus) and while the smell is strong, it's not offensive. I also like Ivory (bar soap) and Every Man Jack.

Desert Essence tea tree vegetable soap bar is also really excellent. It has only a mild smell going on, and leaves no scent behind. Also a killer lather and lasts a long time.

Their liquid soap.. no so good, doesn't lather well and doesn't go the distance.

Thank you for the suggestion.

i agree totally, perfumes are almost exclusively suffocating. i feel like there's this arms race going on, where you get used to one level if fragrance and then a more potent one lures in people, and now the cover ups are getting pretty close to at least as bad as the stinks they're trying to cover up.

The problem is that all of the stuff that used to make perfumes persistent are all gone.

I received a really nice French cologne as a birthday gift back in the 80's--women loved it. It was low grade enough that only people very next to you would notice, and it would last days ... even after showers. This made for some interesting interactions with women at the office ... "Oh, looks like someone had a good weekend ..."

At some point, they had to change out the binder/fixer/whatever (presumably it's either horribly toxic or horribly cruel to skunks), and colognes haven't been the same since.

Now, in order to get a cologne to last even a couple of hours, they create things that are horrifically strong at start, and you still almost can't smell them several hours later.

(I actually had the misfortune to test this. My mother used Chanel No 5 Eau de Cologne that I would buy for her as a gift when she ran out or it went bad. The last one I bought smelled wrong as soon as I opened it--they reformulated it and discontinued it soon after. I wound up kicked through Chanel customer service to get some of the last "real" stock they had--they knew that the updated one was wrong and had kept a small amount for customer complaints (and presumably very rich patrons).)

Hrm... "Fixative" appears to be the term. Ambergris is one of several used, and the one I've heard of.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixative_(perfumery)

I'm not old enough to know how cologne and perfume "used" to be, but it certainly works better (and longer) when it binds to oils.

Try using an oil-based soap, using a dab of unscented baby oil on your skin or not showering for a day before using perfumes.

AFAIK this is also in part because there is a difference between "perfume", "cologne", "eau de cologne", "eau de perfume"--some of these are probably the same, I forget the exact details. Someone once explained me there's three different types of smell-good liquids, and they mainly differ in how long they last. Often you have the same fragrance at various prices.

What I don’t understand is how people wear half a dozen unrelated fragrances at once. Laundry detergent, dryer sheets, cologne, deodorant, shampoo, and sometimes people still add “air freshener” on top of that.

It's possible to get unscented versions of most personal hygiene products- and generally you shouldn't be using so much shampoo that you smell it for hours after using it.

Most shampoo fragrance fades fairly fast, compared to scents meant to last all day like deodorant. But I think you are underestimating the strength of the fragrances in shampoo.

I do know of the fragrance-free options, of course, but I’ve suffered comfort issues from being near other people’s fragrances for over a decade. I have to try to find fragrance-free and natural versions of everything for my girlfriend.

It isn’t a problem for my own use, as I use very few personal care products, but it would be great if the general public understood the things you say.

far more offensive

So much. Had this one colleague, luckily not in the same room, but he once touched my screen (which is already a big no-go for me anwyay) and I could still smeel it days later. Maybe my sense of smell is too good, don't know, but this was rather unpleasant.

That's what showers are for. Water alone washes off odor.

For a brief moment. Just like how brushing your teeth makes your breath smell alright for 30 minutes.

Nice to have a gameplan thereafter though.

No, you continue to smell just fine for about 24 hours or until you induce yourself to sweat (exercise, sauna, wearing too many clothes for conditions). The bacteria and their food have literally been washed off of your skin and it takes them some time to regrow into sufficient numbers to produce odor.

What mechanism of applying body soap do you think persists after showering? Either way, the bacteria are mostly gone and more importantly their food is mostly gone. Of course, they immediately start trying to grow back, whether you used soap or not.

(I don't see any reason the tooth-brushing metaphor is warranted, since it seems to introduce more differences than similarities.)

Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing bacteria, or sweat, or dirt. Which is why we use soap in the first place. Your skin has oils on it that trap all of these things. Soap allows you to get much more off than water alone. This is also why soaps can result in dry skin.

If water alone did a good job of removing bacteria, then surgeons wouldn’t scrub with soap for 15 minutes.

> Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing sweat

Citation needed? Sweat is mostly water and trace amount of salt. It dissolves easily in water.

> Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing bacteria or dirt

We agree here! (With some qualified reservations about what the subjective "very good" means, and how necessary it is for body washing applications.)

Water does a reasonable job of removing bacteria -- handwashing studies show this. It's a lot better than nothing. Yes, water combined with soap does a better job.

> If water alone did a good job of removing bacteria, then surgeons wouldn’t scrub with soap for 15 minutes.

The topic under discussion is body soaps, not handwashing.

I would always suggest washing your hands with soap! You use your hands to prepare food and touch mucus membranes. The same is not true of, say, your armpits.

(Going off into the weeds here, but: surgeons do not scrub for 15 minutes. That would destroy their skin and increase risk of transferring disease. Timed scrubs are 3-5 minutes. And they certainly do not perform surgery with their armpits.)

> Water does a reasonable job of removing bacteria -- handwashing studies show this.

If I'm not mistaken, the materials I've seen indicate it's the scrubbing for a certain period of time (20 seconds?) that removes the most bacteria in handwashing. Just putting your hands under running water alone doesn't do much, if anything.

Agreed — scrubbing is important. My comment about "water alone" was in contrast to "water plus body soap." I did not mean to suggest you should not scrub.

The goal of hand washing and body washing is the same: reduce the amount of remaining problem bacteria to a negligible amount.

Problem bacteria levels for hands and body are different. Hands are also typically washed for far shorter periods of time than showers.

Standing in a shower for 10 minutes doesn’t mean your armpits are getting cleaned well (or anything else for that matter). I bet most people scrub their armpits for a couple of seconds each. And except for people who shave, armpits are full of hair that interferes with getting them cleaned easily.

The set of people who vigorously scrub their clean-shaven armpits under water for 20-30 seconds each is probably pretty small.

> or until you induce yourself to sweat

So, for me walking to work, that would be about 10 minutes.

And most of the east coast is 90% humid and in the 90s come summer

So do you think washing with soap prevents you from sweating, or what?

> Just like how brushing your teeth makes your breath smell alright for 30 minutes.

Provided your mouth isn't dry (e.g., when you're asleep), brushing your tongue should help a lot. Getting rid of the white furry stuff very much helps keep things fresh - at least until you start drinking coffee/sugar and eating foods again (apples might be alright though).

While you didn't mention tongue brushing - I won't presume whether you do or don't do that already so I'm replying as such for others' benefit - I believe not everyone realises[1] how much of an improvement tongue brushing makes. Those with a strong gag reflex[2] might also be reluctant to brush - it's not something my parents ever taught me to do and one of them still has it as strong as I used to only around 10-15 years ago - I had to learn it myself from online reading and gradual practice.

[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=brush+tongue

[2] My own tips for dialing down the reflex is to not have a full stomach (so not immediately after breakfast or dinner[3]), breathe in deeply beforehand, brush from back of the tongue to the front, and grimace/retract the tongue before a gag kicks in (but also not worry if there is still a gag; just take another chance to rinse/breathe). The other benefit to being able to be relaxed about this is that dentist visits become a lot more relaxing (i.e., I've almost drifted off before while occupying/placing my mind in other places and thinking about - meditation, self hypnosis perhaps?).

[3] One other common dental hygiene recommendation is to brush three times a day, but I've never really been able to do that consistently and know of very few people who do. I would suggest a compromise solution of brushing morning, and then before dinner to clear the bacteria, and then of course again before bed. The idea isn't to have no bacteria in the mouth (that's impossible) but to just cut it back frequently enough to make a difference.

(Background: I'm not a dentist but I've had enough experience visiting them to have permanently made improvements towards my dental health, which I'd guess was below-average in the past. These days I practically look forward to seeing my dentist - so long as it's just the yearly checkup.)

Water washes off odor but not the bacteria that make that odor. You need to use soap.

> Water washes off odor but not the bacteria that make that odor.

That is simply inaccurate.

"Bacteria of potential faecal origin (mostly Enterococcus and Enterobacter spp.) were found after no handwashing in 44% of samples. Handwashing with water alone reduced the presence of bacteria to 23% (p < 0.001)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037063/

Whether body soap is necessary for you in particular to not smell bad I cannot comment, but it certainly isn't universally true.

I know it sounds strange, but if you can make it through the first month or two of not using body soap or shampoo regularly you'll be better off in all ways.

I generally don't use shampoo, hair product, etc. But I really hate seeing comments like this on HN because it is anecdotal and the assumption that it generalizes is unwarranted.

I have a genetic disorder. It has taken me years to get to the point where skipping soap and shampoo in the shower most of the time makes sense. I use lots of hand soap, hand sanitizer and even spray peroxide for germ control.

Physiology, air quality, water quality and other factors significantly impact the particulars here. So, great if you can make it work for you. Wonderful if you want to share tips. Honest. But you only alienate people when you make such claims because inevitably someone reading this will chime in to say they have done absolutely everything you talk about and could not make it work for them.

I no longer use soap for most of my body when I shower, I no longer use it when washing my face at night, and I no longer use shampoo. And things are fine.

I once tried not using deodorant in one of my armpits. After about a week things were fine, but it got bad when I wore a tuxedo and went to a fancy dinner. I think the stress of the dinner made me sweat, and the tuxedo trapped the heat and sweat, so the bacteria went to town.

Other than that sort of scenario I imagine I could get by without deodorant. My girlfriend never uses any and only rarely smells bad.

It's possible that you have to wait for the bacterial population to balance out, and then the odors diminish. After you stop using deodorant, you'll get colonized by certain species that are most aggressive. But I'm guessing that over time you'll get a better mix, and better smells.

Would be interesting to see more microbiome studies to investigate this. See https://www.popsci.com/antiperspirants-deodorants-change-you...

wrt not using deodorant, personally I use unperfumed aluminum-free deodorant. TBH, it's not as good as regular deodorant; I wash my armpits and apply fresh deodorant daily, whereas with regular deodorant I can go for ~2 days before my armpits starts to smell (when not doing anything particularly physical).

Do you use body soap when you've gotten very sweaty from exercise? How about when you've gotten very dirty from physical labor in a dirty environment? If so, does this temporarily "throw off" your natural oils? For how long? Would someone that exercises heavily/gets dirty often enough, never be able to achieve oil homeostasis because of this?

Related: How do you feel about the Roman-Empire cleaning method of applying (usually olive) oil to your skin and then scraping it off (with something like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigil)? I've been thinking for a while that it might get you clean from sweat/dirt without throwing off your skin-oil balance.

Exercise-induced sweat is composed primarily of water (98-99%) and a little bit of salt.[0] Obviously, salt water just rinses off. You don't need soap for that.

If you get physically dirty, especially greasy, then yeah, use soap.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspiration#Composition

Those are normal sweat glands. The sweat glands in your armpits and groin are apocrine sweat glands and they excrete things like fatty acids that bacteria consume and cause the nasty BO. That stuff doesn't really come off with water, you need soap.

For most mammals, however, apocrine sweat glands secrete an oily (and eventually smelly) compound that acts as a pheromone, territorial marker, and warning signal.[1]

Before you hit puberty, your apocrine sweat glands aren't really active. That's why prepubecents don't really have BO, just a mild sweat smell.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrine_sweat_gland

I've found soap to be largely unnecessary unless I have greasy stains on the skin, but going without shampoo didn't work. When I was flat broke in college I had to go for a month without shampoo and my hair never achieved any state beyond plastered to my head with grease. It was not a viable situation.

Perhaps if I had adopted dreadlocks it might have worked, but as a nerdy white guy in the computer lab dreads felt out of place.

I just use Dr. Bronner’s. It has a very short, natural ingredient list, a low amount of fragrance that is natural and easy to tolerate, and my hair gets plenty clean.

I use Suave, because I'm a cheapskate.

Just cut the Bronners with water 1:1 or 1:3 and that liter of soap will last a looooong time.

Why 1:3 or 1:1, but not 1:2?

1 part plus 2 parts is 3 parts, which would be odd

if you read ALL the text on the Dr Bronner's soap bottle, you'll know

I get the 1:1 part (all one) but 1:3? Is that the "moral ABC's"?

I mean.. there's no law against it! I meant to convey that their liquid soap is concentrated, and should be diluted (IMO) in some ratio before using.

I’m not sure that works out to be cheaper, especially if you can get the soap in bulk (refill a bottle).

I am sensitive to the synthetic amalgam of proprietary chemicals known as ‘fragrance (parfum)’, and I have to evacuate the house or create major ventilation when anyone showers with a shampoo like Suave. I also then prefer not to go near their head for several hours.

It is odd how those shampoos work, fragrance wise. What I observe is a wave of odor that is emitted from the bathroom and slowly creeps through nearby rooms after the door is opened following showering.

Free & Clean also works if you're on a budget. There is literally nothing in it but surfactants and detergents.

Ditto on Dr Bronners for shampoo replacement. I find I only need to use it once every couple weeks.

yeah, my hair is way too greasy for no shampoo, except i prefer bar soap for my hair, not shampoo.

i'll leave visible greese stains on a fresh pillow case.

Maybe try using the spray manufactured by AOBiome :)

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/my-no-soap-no-sh...

Does this work if you have an active lifestyle? My commute involves quite a lot of physical exertion, and arriving stinky to work would not really be acceptable.

For that, we use a mixture of two natural deodorizing compounds:

Nose blindness

Social mores

I have not made the leap to no soap, but my wife and I have stopped using shampoo and conditioner and it has been no problem at all.

My wife is a PE teacher and is quite physically active and it is perfectly fine.

My hair is a mess when I don't use shampoo and conditioner, but I haven't used body soap in years. I've asked friends and co-workers about body odour, including ones that will call me out on my shit. Not a single one of them notices it.

I don't, either - but I do notice it after I've done something athletic, or I haven't showered in 16 hours. I don't think it's because I'm desensitized. A shower and a clean change of clothes fixes that right up.

The no shampoo plan takes some time to kick in - I think it is a couple weeks. Did you try to power through it for a little bit?

As an alternative, there are milder ways to wash your hair, the main thing is to not strip out all the oil from it.

For the the shower with no soap, is it really just water that cleans you off? I'm intrigued.

I did, and I also tried the vinegar + baking soda thing. It was annoying to deal with, didn't look good, and would often tangle into a horiffic mess.

It still does, when I fail to shampoo and conditioner on a daily basis.

Yes, I shower without soap. I guess there's some trickle-down of shampoo, but it's not a major contributor. Hot water and light scrubbing cleans me off. If I am exceptionally dirty, I will use soap, but because I don't work outdoors, that rarely happens.

Obviously, I always wash my hands with soap.

The no-shampoo thing seems to work great when I have short hair. Long hair needs the full package including conditioner, and more often too.

I bike half an hour in the summer in this hot and muggy area and as long as you remember to rinse your pits and change out of your sweaty clothes when you arrive you won't be stinky. It's something I worried about when I started biking, but it really hasn't been an issue at all.

The stinky part comes from those sopping wet clothes you changed out of and had to hang up somewhere. Hopefully not in your office.

I'm a guy with longish hair (curly and shoulder length). I run long distances (50-ish miles a week) and bike commute daily.

I also shampoo only 2 or 3 times a year. No issues for me. I just use very hot water and really rub my scalp in the shower. Started it as a 30-day experiment in 2010 when I had bad dandruff and never looked back.

Yep. I run or cycle daily. Be sure to rinse your armpits, etc.

> you'll be better off in all ways.

I have three different skin conditions - if i take a shower and use no products (body wash, face wash, shampoo) then they flare/continue to flare. So, no - i'll be worse.

The reality is this isn't going to be for everyone. If it works for you, great. But it's not something everyone can take up and should not be portrayed as such.

I can confirm this. After reading an article years ago about skipping shampoo I tried it for a few weeks and indeed, was fine, so just stopped. Have used shampoo perhaps a half a dozen times in the past 20 years. And I work out (sweat hard) everyday. But FWIW i keep my hair quite short!

Also minimize body soap but can’t do without it. Hands get washed a lot of course but I try to avoid liquid soap (Dr Bronner's is OK) and "purell" if I can.

For the past 10-15 years I have only used Shampoo maybe once a year. Every time I ask my barber how it's looking back there, I always get the thumbs up.

The natural oil that accumulates let me style my hair without using products.

I also do not use body wash / body soap and no complaints around smell although I do use deodorant everyday.

Serious question, if you aren't using soap or shampoo, what are you doing in the shower for 10 to 15 minutes?

Scrubbing at my pits and wonky bits with warm water.

GP takes cold showers, so it isn’t that.

Scrubbing at his pits and wonky bits with cold water.

Staring at the wall and thinking about nothing. I really love it.

I scrub all over, but especially my smelly bits with a cold water until they stop smelling. I vigorously rub my scalp to make sure to get off any dandruff. That's it!

> You won't need deodorants or perfumes.

This is bad advice. You will have BO if you don't use deodorant. There are no natural tricks to solve this.

I use Potassium Alum (by Salt Of The Earth) and haven't had problems. Technically a deo, I guess.

That is the active ingredient in antiperspirants, so it's exactly the same, yeah.

It may sound natural but the aluminium is toxic.

Aluminium is the active ingredient in literally all commercial antiperspirants. There's no evidence that putting aluminum based components on your armpits is harmful: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-a...

> There are no natural tricks to solve this.

Other than to be East Asian.

I had an a rash under my arms for the better part of a year that made all the hair go away, and removed all of the odor there. It was just like any other skin that was sort of clammy, like having your knee folded up.

For me, if I don't use deodorant for a couple of days I can really smell myself. Doesn't help to wash with or without soap either, I almost smell worse after soaping when not using deodorant.

But it does take a few days for the smell to kick in.

The whole point is to wait until your body's bacteria, etc has come back into balance. One or two days doesn't work.

I stopped using soap and shampoo for a year or two and it caused horribly clogged pores all the time and it wrecked my skin. I'm very oily :(

>I know it sounds strange, but if you can make it through the first month or two of not using body soap or shampoo regularly you'll be better off in all ways.

I've heard this before but I don't understand it. If I go two days without shampoo my scalp becomes extremely itchy and flaky.

Agreed. It's more a matter of keeping your clothes clean. I use Method Sweetwater for that (little odor) plus I add bleach for underwear and towels (washed separately). No fabric softener. No dryer balls, they shorten the life of the fabric. I only wear cotton and wool.

I tried that for 2 months and it didn't change anything.

Yes hair is a little less greasy compared to when you shower every 1-2 days and then not for 4 days, but you still need to wash your hair with vinegar and baking powder (wtf) if you don't want it to look greasy.

I have foreskin and asshair: if I don't wash penis and booty daily I'm going to have major funk.

It’s not good to wash your foreskin with soap.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but all of the people irl who have tried to tell me this stank to high heaven. I don’t doubt that anyone could adjust to that, for themselves, but how about the rest of us? As to the hair, maybe it works for you, but some people have very dry hair, or very greasy hair and what you’re saying simply doesn’t fly.

Not to mention those of us in customer-facing roles, who can’t really afford to hope we’re not offensively ripe that day.

Seconded.

I tried exactly this when I was working from home for a while. The hair worked out wonderfully - better than any product I’ve ever used.

But the BO? It... well, my wife called it a manly musk. She gave it a doubleplus good at home, but i was not allowed to leave the house like that. Even I could smell myself.

I tried adding some probiotic body lotion into the mix, but it didn’t help at all.

You could just soap the most important areas that cause odor - armpits, groin and feet every time. Sometimes neck and behind the ears to exfoliate. Everything else plain water, unless I've been hiking etc. I do this with a plain unscented soap, takes only a minute or two to shower and no odor problem. Light soap on face maybe every other day. Skin feels much healthier this way.

I totally support this, assuming your body odor and oil type accommodates it. For me, I find hot water hair rinses with less frequent shampooing is much better. By the same token god help anyone around me if I didn’t soap my armpits that day. I see a huge difference between finding what works for you, and absolutist approaches to hygiene.

It would take me more time to selectively lather certain parts of my body. It's faster to just lather my whole body with a soapy cloth.

And what happens if you accidentally get soap on part of your arm or leg?

I could shower and soap everything quickly in a few minutes to, bit the GP comments were talking about taking 15 to 20 minutes to shower, which seems extremely long to me.

Nothing happens if I get soap elsewhere, I just don't intentionally soap outside those regions daily. In my experience arms, legs torso etc aren't particularly dirty on a daily basis and the skins seems more mostrurizied and healthy if I just use water on them. YMMV depending on skin type.

I'm pretty romantically active and I'm not saying I never smell, sometimes after a couple hours of exercise I do, but I can tell when I do and my romantic partner will tease me about it.

This isn't a case of me not smelling it. I just have another cold shower whenever I need one. But generally speaking most exercise is fine.

> without a good scrub with some soap in all "enclosed hairy regions" you will most certainly have quite strong body odor.

This is not true in general. Maybe there are outliers.

The mechanism by which washing kills bacteria is by simply pushing them off your body down the drain. Soap's only purpose is to remove oil, which water does not rinse off by itself.

As a general rule, try rinsing first; if it still smells bad, then use soap. I exercise daily and sweat a lot pre-shower. A rinse eliminates all body odor.

I knew someone who never used soap on their body because of a medical condition and their skin would react. Suffice to say they didn't smell like BO, but they did have a heavy sweaty smell to them like after a workout. Not pleasant.

Water alone will do nothing to body oils. They just stick. Bacteria then start to digest it and you get a smell.

Overall, water might cut down some of the smell, but without soap, you're going to smell sweaty.

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