Deodorants, perfumes, soaps pollute air at levels as high as cars
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
I didn't read the full paper, but this is the only mention of soap in there. Soap seems to be okay with respect to air pollution. Mind you, a lot of "bath bars" on the market these days are not soap, but that's a completely different topic.
Perhaps the article about this paper (and unwashed hippies in general) are wrong about soap?
From the abstract:
"A detailed mass balance demonstrates that the use of volatile chemical products (VCPs)—including pesticides, coatings, printing inks, adhesives, cleaning agents, and personal care products now constitutes half of fossil fuel VOC emissions in industrialized cities."
Okay... That is not what the linked article says at all.
I don't think I've heard of them before.
The soaps I know are soap bars and as I understand it, they are basically made from fat and lye (or their modern equivalents).
What are these bath bars made of?
I've always liked the home made stuff you find at street and farmers markets; bigger variety in scents for sure.
Also thinking about the soap making process makes me think of Fight Club.
So basically I've actually been washing with "bath bars/liquids/detergents" instead of actual soap.. uhmmm
I usually read the ingredients on pretty much everything I buy, but I always thought "lauryl sulphate*" stuff and palmitate oil and others where just industrial versions of fatty acids in regular soap...I guess I was wrong.
PDF link to paper: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/359/6377/760.full....
I think they are correct about the soap, though. I use the unscented form of Hippie Soap (Dr. Bronners) and it does have a citrus scent that goes away quickly after it is first opened.
Zero voc paints are nice. I'm not sure if they are really zero voc or just much lower than usual voc, but they do smell much better.
Also, if you read the fine-print on normal latex paints, the recommendation is to not live in the room for a month after painting. I don't know anyone who has ever followed such..
I know 10 or 15 minute cold showers are less pleasant, but they wake you up and make the rest of the winter less hellish. I actually love the cold at this point.
Nose blindness
Social mores
My wife is a PE teacher and is quite physically active and it is perfectly fine.
I don't, either - but I do notice it after I've done something athletic, or I haven't showered in 16 hours. I don't think it's because I'm desensitized. A shower and a clean change of clothes fixes that right up.
As an alternative, there are milder ways to wash your hair, the main thing is to not strip out all the oil from it.
For the the shower with no soap, is it really just water that cleans you off? I'm intrigued.
It still does, when I fail to shampoo and conditioner on a daily basis.
Yes, I shower without soap. I guess there's some trickle-down of shampoo, but it's not a major contributor. Hot water and light scrubbing cleans me off. If I am exceptionally dirty, I will use soap, but because I don't work outdoors, that rarely happens.
Obviously, I always wash my hands with soap.
The stinky part comes from those sopping wet clothes you changed out of and had to hang up somewhere. Hopefully not in your office.
I also shampoo only 2 or 3 times a year. No issues for me. I just use very hot water and really rub my scalp in the shower. Started it as a 30-day experiment in 2010 when I had bad dandruff and never looked back.
Not to mention those of us in customer-facing roles, who can’t really afford to hope we’re not offensively ripe that day.
I tried exactly this when I was working from home for a while. The hair worked out wonderfully - better than any product I’ve ever used.
But the BO? It... well, my wife called it a manly musk. She gave it a doubleplus good at home, but i was not allowed to leave the house like that. Even I could smell myself.
I tried adding some probiotic body lotion into the mix, but it didn’t help at all.
And what happens if you accidentally get soap on part of your arm or leg?
Nothing happens if I get soap elsewhere, I just don't intentionally soap outside those regions daily. In my experience arms, legs torso etc aren't particularly dirty on a daily basis and the skins seems more mostrurizied and healthy if I just use water on them. YMMV depending on skin type.
This isn't a case of me not smelling it. I just have another cold shower whenever I need one. But generally speaking most exercise is fine.
Perhaps if I had adopted dreadlocks it might have worked, but as a nerdy white guy in the computer lab dreads felt out of place.
I am sensitive to the synthetic amalgam of proprietary chemicals known as ‘fragrance (parfum)’, and I have to evacuate the house or create major ventilation when anyone showers with a shampoo like Suave. I also then prefer not to go near their head for several hours.
It is odd how those shampoos work, fragrance wise. What I observe is a wave of odor that is emitted from the bathroom and slowly creeps through nearby rooms after the door is opened following showering.
i'll leave visible greese stains on a fresh pillow case.
This is bad advice. You will have BO if you don't use deodorant. There are no natural tricks to solve this.
Other than to be East Asian.
But it does take a few days for the smell to kick in.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/magazine/my-no-soap-no-sh...
Their liquid soap.. no so good, doesn't lather well and doesn't go the distance.
I received a really nice French cologne as a birthday gift back in the 80's--women loved it. It was low grade enough that only people very next to you would notice, and it would last days ... even after showers. This made for some interesting interactions with women at the office ... "Oh, looks like someone had a good weekend ..."
At some point, they had to change out the binder/fixer/whatever (presumably it's either horribly toxic or horribly cruel to skunks), and colognes haven't been the same since.
Now, in order to get a cologne to last even a couple of hours, they create things that are horrifically strong at start, and you still almost can't smell them several hours later.
(I actually had the misfortune to test this. My mother used Chanel No 5 Eau de Cologne that I would buy for her as a gift when she ran out or it went bad. The last one I bought smelled wrong as soon as I opened it--they reformulated it and discontinued it soon after. I wound up kicked through Chanel customer service to get some of the last "real" stock they had--they knew that the updated one was wrong and had kept a small amount for customer complaints (and presumably very rich patrons).)
Try using an oil-based soap, using a dab of unscented baby oil on your skin or not showering for a day before using perfumes.
I do know of the fragrance-free options, of course, but I’ve suffered comfort issues from being near other people’s fragrances for over a decade. I have to try to find fragrance-free and natural versions of everything for my girlfriend.
It isn’t a problem for my own use, as I use very few personal care products, but it would be great if the general public understood the things you say.
So much. Had this one colleague, luckily not in the same room, but he once touched my screen (which is already a big no-go for me anwyay) and I could still smeel it days later. Maybe my sense of smell is too good, don't know, but this was rather unpleasant.
Nice to have a gameplan thereafter though.
What mechanism of applying body soap do you think persists after showering? Either way, the bacteria are mostly gone and more importantly their food is mostly gone. Of course, they immediately start trying to grow back, whether you used soap or not.
(I don't see any reason the tooth-brushing metaphor is warranted, since it seems to introduce more differences than similarities.)
If water alone did a good job of removing bacteria, then surgeons wouldn’t scrub with soap for 15 minutes.
Citation needed? Sweat is mostly water and trace amount of salt. It dissolves easily in water.
> Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing bacteria or dirt
We agree here! (With some qualified reservations about what the subjective "very good" means, and how necessary it is for body washing applications.)
Water does a reasonable job of removing bacteria -- handwashing studies show this. It's a lot better than nothing. Yes, water combined with soap does a better job.
> If water alone did a good job of removing bacteria, then surgeons wouldn’t scrub with soap for 15 minutes.
The topic under discussion is body soaps, not handwashing.
I would always suggest washing your hands with soap! You use your hands to prepare food and touch mucus membranes. The same is not true of, say, your armpits.
(Going off into the weeds here, but: surgeons do not scrub for 15 minutes. That would destroy their skin and increase risk of transferring disease. Timed scrubs are 3-5 minutes. And they certainly do not perform surgery with their armpits.)
If I'm not mistaken, the materials I've seen indicate it's the scrubbing for a certain period of time (20 seconds?) that removes the most bacteria in handwashing. Just putting your hands under running water alone doesn't do much, if anything.
The set of people who vigorously scrub their clean-shaven armpits under water for 20-30 seconds each is probably pretty small.
So, for me walking to work, that would be about 10 minutes.
And most of the east coast is 90% humid and in the 90s come summer
Provided your mouth isn't dry (e.g., when you're asleep), brushing your tongue should help a lot. Getting rid of the white furry stuff very much helps keep things fresh - at least until you start drinking coffee/sugar and eating foods again (apples might be alright though).
While you didn't mention tongue brushing - I won't presume whether you do or don't do that already so I'm replying as such for others' benefit - I believe not everyone realises[1] how much of an improvement tongue brushing makes. Those with a strong gag reflex[2] might also be reluctant to brush - it's not something my parents ever taught me to do and one of them still has it as strong as I used to only around 10-15 years ago - I had to learn it myself from online reading and gradual practice.
[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=brush+tongue
[2] My own tips for dialing down the reflex is to not have a full stomach (so not immediately after breakfast or dinner[3]), breathe in deeply beforehand, brush from back of the tongue to the front, and grimace/retract the tongue before a gag kicks in (but also not worry if there is still a gag; just take another chance to rinse/breathe). The other benefit to being able to be relaxed about this is that dentist visits become a lot more relaxing (i.e., I've almost drifted off before while occupying/placing my mind in other places and thinking about - meditation, self hypnosis perhaps?).
[3] One other common dental hygiene recommendation is to brush three times a day, but I've never really been able to do that consistently and know of very few people who do. I would suggest a compromise solution of brushing morning, and then before dinner to clear the bacteria, and then of course again before bed. The idea isn't to have no bacteria in the mouth (that's impossible) but to just cut it back frequently enough to make a difference.
(Background: I'm not a dentist but I've had enough experience visiting them to have permanently made improvements towards my dental health, which I'd guess was below-average in the past. These days I practically look forward to seeing my dentist - so long as it's just the yearly checkup.)
That is simply inaccurate.
"Bacteria of potential faecal origin (mostly Enterococcus and Enterobacter spp.) were found after no handwashing in 44% of samples. Handwashing with water alone reduced the presence of bacteria to 23% (p < 0.001)."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3037063/
Whether body soap is necessary for you in particular to not smell bad I cannot comment, but it certainly isn't universally true.
Related: How do you feel about the Roman-Empire cleaning method of applying (usually olive) oil to your skin and then scraping it off (with something like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigil)? I've been thinking for a while that it might get you clean from sweat/dirt without throwing off your skin-oil balance.
If you get physically dirty, especially greasy, then yeah, use soap.
For most mammals, however, apocrine sweat glands secrete an oily (and eventually smelly) compound that acts as a pheromone, territorial marker, and warning signal.[1]
Before you hit puberty, your apocrine sweat glands aren't really active. That's why prepubecents don't really have BO, just a mild sweat smell.
Yes hair is a little less greasy compared to when you shower every 1-2 days and then not for 4 days, but you still need to wash your hair with vinegar and baking powder (wtf) if you don't want it to look greasy.
This is not true in general. Maybe there are outliers.
The mechanism by which washing kills bacteria is by simply pushing them off your body down the drain. Soap's only purpose is to remove oil, which water does not rinse off by itself.
As a general rule, try rinsing first; if it still smells bad, then use soap. I exercise daily and sweat a lot pre-shower. A rinse eliminates all body odor.
In the same way, sometimes, when the trashcan is full, I don't really notice the smell until I leave the house, breathe the outside air and come back inside after. Then it hit me.
Also, how can one really clean his ass crack without soap? Water alone is definitely not enough.
It will be awkward, but walking around smelling is going to hurt him in all areas of his life.
If a few people mention it, they will have to do something. And you don't have to risk getting yelled at.
We had a guy at a previous job of mine (food service) who (almost certainly) didn't wear deodorant and it became an HR issue.
His roommate (who also worked with us) said he did shower.
Unless the person in question had a medical condition... I find this very hard to believe. There are a lot of cultures where people don't use deodorant but wash every day (and more if doing sports etc... And it's not an issue).
I loved the technology and product at that workplace but such awkward situations ensured that I moved on as quickly as I got the opportunity to do so.
To both you and abawany: maybe just send a polite, anonymous email (make a one time use gmail or something)? Like a personal version of the public service whistleblower, this is the sort of situation that seems like a good fit. A simple "Hey, I see you fairly regularly and..." type of thing, that they're a nice person and you're worried they might not notice this and don't want them to be embarrassed.
I do agree that a (perceived) lack of personal hygiene can hamper people in subtle ways socially and in turn professionally, and it's possible that they could never realize why. If they're a decent enough person that's a real shame, and a quick equivalent of "Your fly is unzipped" could be a real benefit long term.
Imagine you get an email from anonymous person at your workplace. This is about as awkward for workplace culture as it gets. Knowing that there is some guy a) who thinks that you stink, and b) who is not man enough to actually talk to you and instead sends an anonymous message, and c) you have to continue to work with that person, d) but you don't know who it is. Any of your coworkers could be that socially challenged person afraid to talk openly and taking such a ridiculous route.
Either you find the guts to and talk about it openly or you let it slide. I'd much prefer you take the first route. I consider this part of being an adult. It's only awkward if you make it so in the first place.
Not man enough, seriously? So are women exempt from this sort of direct confrontation?
There are plenty of good reasons to not talk about it "openly", one of the most important being that it takes skill to do it well.
Wow, you are seriously crazy. May I point out that your perception first of all is the result of your own brain? It is you yourself who has those ideas in their head - i did not write any of it, you found it in yourself.
As for part two of your fantastic rant, I refer back to what I wrote. You merely restate what was already said and what I responded to. Repetition does not make the argument any better.
If you'd read the following, and take the spirit of this site to heart when commenting here, we'd appreciate it:
According to a variety of authorities, body odor is the result of bacterial interaction with sweat and oil excretions of the body. The medical name for severe body odor is bromhidrosis. But the key is that there is an interaction between the microbiome in the area around your sweat glands, and your sweat that causes the odor.
Anthropologists studying primitive peoples have found many cases of people who do not bathe regularly and yet do not smell either. A group at MIT did some studies with repopulating the microbiome with ammonia consuming bacteria from soil as a way of avoiding body odor without washing. And the folks at the Microbiome project cultivated a bunch of microbiomes from people's arm pits and thighs which also informed this area (although there isn't really a pro-biotic deodorant that I know of yet)
As I understand it, showering and washing isn't getting rid of "odor" it is getting rid of bacteria that is outgassing odor after processing your sweat. You could be odor free without showering with the right bacteria consuming the sweat.
Personally I've found I don't need a ton of soap, can get by without deodorant if not especially active, and can skip shampoo most days but do need conditioner and aggressive rubbing it in/scalp self-massage to avoid dandruff.
Curious: Does conditioner help you avoid dandruff? Any explanation as to how it does?
The conditioner helps with styling it / keeping it feeling smooth and pliable. Especially since I still shampoo once or twice a week for additional dandruff control, which wipes out some of the natural oils.
The aggressive rubbing is the part that does the daily dandruff control. Seems to exfoliate the dead skin.
”When adult armpits are washed with alkaline pH soap, the skin loses its acid mantle (pH 4.5 - 6), raising the skin pH and disrupting the skin barrier. As many bacteria thrive in this elevated pH environment, this makes the skin susceptible to bacterial colonization. […] Underarm hair wicks the moisture away from the skin and aids in keeping the skin dry enough to prevent or diminish bacterial colonization. The hair is less susceptible to bacterial growth and therefore is ideal for preventing the bacterial odor.”
I think deodorant mostly is an example of capitalism creating demand where none exists.
That’s the most foolish thing I’ve read in a long time.
When I was growing up, I was a bit stubborn regarding use of soap and deodorant: I pretty much refused to use anything but water to shower, and never used deodorant (or any other topical substance, for that matter).
That approach worked just great, until I hit puberty... Trust me, if you think nobody needs deodorant just as long as you don’t use soap (or some other such nonsense), I am the living proof of just how extremely far from the truth you are.
Of course, many people out there will never need deodorant (genetics play a large part here, according to some studies I’ve read). There may even be some microbiological technology we can find to cure body odor in alternate ways. But to assume that deodorant is a universally needless product (in favor of not using soap) is incredibly naive, or nearsighted.
I’ll save responding to your random derision of capitalism for another debate.
oh, middle school... i can certainly attest to your experience.
> Of course, many people out there will never need deodorant
Many? The only ethnicity that does not have that is asians IIRC, they lack a certain gene for body odor. So i think it's really everyone but them.
There are many unpleasant aspects of being human that we tolerate, because we have no other choice. Through time, technology is created that helps us deal with more and more of these things. That's only natural, and good.
I was homeless for nearly six years. The last couple, I showered about once a month most of the time. No, I did not stink to high heaven.
I actually smelled worse when I had a corporate job and showered twice a day because I was extremely ill. I smelled worse when I was first homeless and showering daily at a women's shelter because I was still ill.
As I gradually got healthier on the street, my hair got less greasy and other things changed. This is why the advice that you just need to get through the first month doesn't necessarily generalize. These changes occurred gradually over the course of several years as my own microbiome, nutritional status and other metrics changed.
The natural oil that accumulates let me style my hair without using products.
I also do not use body wash / body soap and no complaints around smell although I do use deodorant everyday.
Water alone will do nothing to body oils. They just stick. Bacteria then start to digest it and you get a smell.
Overall, water might cut down some of the smell, but without soap, you're going to smell sweaty.
I once tried not using deodorant in one of my armpits. After about a week things were fine, but it got bad when I wore a tuxedo and went to a fancy dinner. I think the stress of the dinner made me sweat, and the tuxedo trapped the heat and sweat, so the bacteria went to town.
Other than that sort of scenario I imagine I could get by without deodorant. My girlfriend never uses any and only rarely smells bad.
It's possible that you have to wait for the bacterial population to balance out, and then the odors diminish. After you stop using deodorant, you'll get colonized by certain species that are most aggressive. But I'm guessing that over time you'll get a better mix, and better smells.
Would be interesting to see more microbiome studies to investigate this. See https://www.popsci.com/antiperspirants-deodorants-change-you...
I have three different skin conditions - if i take a shower and use no products (body wash, face wash, shampoo) then they flare/continue to flare. So, no - i'll be worse.
The reality is this isn't going to be for everyone. If it works for you, great. But it's not something everyone can take up and should not be portrayed as such.
I generally don't use shampoo, hair product, etc. But I really hate seeing comments like this on HN because it is anecdotal and the assumption that it generalizes is unwarranted.
I have a genetic disorder. It has taken me years to get to the point where skipping soap and shampoo in the shower most of the time makes sense. I use lots of hand soap, hand sanitizer and even spray peroxide for germ control.
Physiology, air quality, water quality and other factors significantly impact the particulars here. So, great if you can make it work for you. Wonderful if you want to share tips. Honest. But you only alienate people when you make such claims because inevitably someone reading this will chime in to say they have done absolutely everything you talk about and could not make it work for them.
Also minimize body soap but can’t do without it. Hands get washed a lot of course but I try to avoid liquid soap (Dr Bronner's is OK) and "purell" if I can.
I've heard this before but I don't understand it. If I go two days without shampoo my scalp becomes extremely itchy and flaky.
Just use white vinegar instead - it works and doesn't cause all the pollution.
I use it on floors with a touch of Dawn, shower cleaner in a 1:1 ratio boiling hot vinegar to Dawn with baking soda as a kicker, glass cleaner, 1:1 cold water and vinegar on dog pee marks and carpet spots, etc.
About the only thing vinegar is not recommended on is wood products.
After researching and stumbling across vingegar:Dawn and baking soda idea, I tried it on his tub. Honest to god, the grime came off like a banana being peeled. At this point, I stopped using commercially available house cleaners. They don't work as well, and are chemically more hazardous. One year later, I still have a cleaning boner from that cleaning session.
Apparently there is something called cleaning vinegar that has 10% acetic acid. Food grade vinegar is only 5%. I only can dream of the grime removal the 10% strength vinegar can accomplish.
Once I added the baking soda, like I said in a different post, the grime came off like a banana peel with much less effort on my part.
Some folks don't need daily deodorant, and most of us don't need daily showers.
And as an aside: Vinegar is generally only used as a replacement for fabric softener. As I mentioned, it isn't a problem to go without, but furthermore can harm some of the rubber tubes and stuff in your washer.
You must live in a cool climate. Your claim doesn't hold true for lots of places in the world.
Believe it or not, so long as you are generally clean, you are fine. Wash your face on your non-shower days, then wash the sweaty portions. Armpits, genitals, and under the breasts if you have them. Wear stuff that helps keep you from sweating. Problem solved.
I've lived 40 years in fairly hot climates and I do not believe that "most of us don't need daily showers" holds true of them. How do you know that, for most people, the regimen you describe would be sufficient?
Seriously. Just stay clean, and that doesn't actually involve daily showers. Change clothes as necessary, especially underclothes. Use products that reduce sweating under the arms. You can wash up without showering, and if it is a hot, humid area everyone has a bit of sweat. Only a few areas tend to produce strong smells on a daily basis.
If it isn't right for you, don't do it.
How is that evidence of anything?
> Knowing that lots of folks are fine with simply washing up on non-shower days
Clearly the issue in question is whether some form of daily washing regimen is needed, not whether it is specifically coming from a shower head or not.
All you're saying there is lots of folks are fine with daily washing.
> and that some folks simply don't live in areas with such shower access?
That's irrelevant to the issue we're discussing.
> Waking up slimy with sweat around the breast and armpit area and having a brutally honest spouse who'd tell me if I stink?
I was asking about how you'd know beyond personal anecdote
> Freaking medical knowledge about what causes the smell? Seriously. Just stay clean, and that doesn't actually involve daily showers.
Again, were taking about daily cleaning not specifically whether there's water from a shower head.
How are you supposed to stay clean? What if you get dirty? What do you do then?
> Change clothes as necessary, especially underclothes. Use products that reduce sweating under the arms. You can wash up without showering,
Again, the issue is about washing not specifically how the water is delivered.
> and if it is a hot, humid area everyone has a bit of sweat.
That's irrelevant to what we're discussing.
> Only a few areas tend to produce strong smells on a daily basis.
That's also irrelevant... does that somehow indicate that washing isn't required?
I'm basically Irish, and boy do I sweat. Even when I was young and fit, I would be drenched when my co-workers/friends looked dry.
My brother once asked the family doctor about his sweating. The doc just said everyone is different.
I'm Scandinavian, and I'm comfy and dry when I can wake up seeing my own breath. After moving to California, though, I'm pretty sure I'm single handedly ending the drought.
Unfortunately, the middle ground isn't well represented in the market. I long ago made the switch to more lightly scented and unscented hygiene products and sometimes it takes a lot more work than it should. Fortunately there are clothes detergents and dryer sheets that are unscented that you can buy in many stores, however for body wash and deodorant I basically always have to buy online (I ended up just using an "unscented body wash base" and a fragrance free hypoallergenic anti-perspirant). It's very frustrating to have such a simple need (fragrance free common products) be so difficult to fulfill. Maybe things will change, I remember when it was hard to find soy milk in most grocery stores and that's changed dramatically.
How does my soap get into the air? Is it volatile and I just don't know?
From the abstract:
>We show that human exposure to carbonaceous aerosols of fossil origin is transitioning away from transportation-related sources and toward VCP's.
and from the study itself:
>Most organic compounds in soaps and detergents dissolve in water and end up in sewer systems (20), with negligible amounts emitted from wastewater treatment plants (21).
And my takeaway is:
e.g. organic compounds in the soaps used for dish-washing and showering don't VOC-off, but instead are carried away by the drain and are almost entirely captured in wastewater treatment.
So, when this article mentions soaps, I'd hazard to restrict that to spray soaps derived from petrochemicals.
No mention of soap.
It’s not clear how much soaps really contribute, though, given that all consumer products were lumped together.
0: https://ccohs.ca/oshanswers/hsprograms/scent_free.html
1: https://www.allergicliving.com/2010/07/02/scent-free-workpla...
Insurance companies, by and large, make their money on the delta between the prices they charge and the costs to deliver service. If they can delivery service to a predominately healthier population, then they can deliver service for lower costs, meaning they can lower costs to be more competitive, while being able to make more profits and deliver better outcomes.
The notion that they want to drive up healthcare costs is kind of ridiculous. If that were true, they'd be rushing to sign up patients with terminal illnesses and costly pre-existing conditions, but the fact of the matter is that the government had to literally force them to for that to happen.
Here are a some links I've collected on the topic - obviously, I'm a little biased but I have yet to see any compelling case for privatised healthcare on essential services:
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/private-health-insur...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-23/more-health-insurers-t...
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/nov/18/exper...
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/nov/17/marke...
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/crisis-looms-as-a...
http://www.smh.com.au/money/saving/dont-be-fooled-by-the-pri...
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2015/s4262363.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-you-dont-need-private-heal...
As a Swede I nust say I really don't get what you mean by that.
I guess the places where you get escorted from in the US are privately owned and not due to a law (but I could be wrong). The companies firing you for smoking might also have to do with a bit stronger labor laws in Norway :)
In the US, you might be protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which has some teeth. https://www.laborlawcenter.com/education-center/new-ada-guid...
I do wish people would think more about the scents they use, and for the love of god stop putting the unscented laundry soap in the middle of all the scented ones!
Of course, I don't mean to suggest that obnoxious use of perfumes should be encouraged, but for those who are extremely sensitive, it's perhaps worth a look given how rarely doctors seem to seriously prescribe exercise (I think part of the reason is that taking up a new form of exercise is intimidating and difficult to monitor for many people, and that not all doctors live the healthiest of lifestyles themselves).
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Odor-Works-Natural-Deodorant-Alternat...
Perhaps I could kill two birds at once by selling stainless steel horseshoes for bathing use? "Uncle Bohr's Lucky Stainless Steel Bathing Horseshoe" or such?
But FWIW here's an NPR article that says it doesn't work:
"Does a Bit of Steel Get Rid of That Garlic Smell?"
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=647335...
My dad had this "crystal rock" deodorant that he thought was working until we told him otherwise.
Thing is, the skunk didn't miss and everyone knew when they came into the store.
There was a time where you could expect people on HN to have a grasp of basic logic and often even chemistry, but I guess one can't live in the past.
Here's an article I found that goes into the chemistry of it: https://www.thoughtco.com/how-stainless-steel-removes-odors-...
So scrubbing yourself with stainless steel can replace soap but not deodorant. Unless you're literally rubbing steel particles onto your skin there's no lasting effect, it just kills the smells (if they are sulfur-based).
EDIT: of course this assumes you trust the article to be scientifically accurate.
But deodorant is perfume, anti-perspirant stops sweating.
People don't wait until they stink to put deodorant on, they put it on in the morning after a shower when they don't smell to prevent odors later on. Even if "prevent" means "covering them up with fragrance"
It was a correction to a misunderstanding. As neither of the two authors I referenced replied, I assumed that either they didn't see it, or accepted the correction, or dismissed it and moved on.
The arguments weren't about the large issues of the day, but the arguments were wrong based on a misunderstanding, and surely the world is improved when you have an understanding of things, great or small, rather than misunderstanding.
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With regards to your statement, you don't prevent odor by adding odor. You attempt to change the quality of the odor you emit by mixing in other odors with purported desirable qualities. You create an admixture of "good" and "bad" in a stronger odor.
This is not prevention.
If you have asthma or other respiratory condition, a strong odor can trigger that pathology, regardless of the qualities of that odor that would cause you to think it smelled good or bad. The strength of the odor alone is the trigger.
In that case you would much prefer the people around you used an anti-perspirant with as little extra odor added in as reasonable.
Or maybe you don't have any respiratory pathologies, but you find strong odor distracting. You might actually prefer low levels of body odor to strong levels of some deodorant.
> A deodorant is a substance applied to the body to prevent body odor caused by the bacterial breakdown of perspiration in armpits, feet, and other areas of the body. A subgroup of deodorants, antiperspirants, affect odor as well as prevent sweating by affecting sweat glands.
(emphasis mine)
Just to add to the anecdata, I've known for some time that if I rub my fingertips on a stainless steel spoon after cutting garlic it greatly reduces the smell. This doesn't seem to work with a wooden or plastic spoon.
I recently spent a few months in the countryside with very little social contact (a great way to get a lot of deep work done). I would only shower every three or four days and didn't use deodorant. On the first day I smelled fine. By day three or four the accumulation of odour was noticeable. Since returning to civilisation, I've mostly stuck to a shower each day without using deodorant other than when I think it'll be necessary (like if I go out dancing).
I’d even go further to say I’m convinced that use of soaps and deodorant cause us to generate odor in an even worse way. This would make sense if you want to keep selling a product. We should research this!
And regarding the stainless steel stick, I just stroke my pit hairs with my fingers.
Assuming it removes onion and garlic odors, how does it follow that it would remove body odor?
I strongly dislike scented products and try to purchase as few as possible. But it is usually impossible to find unscented soap/shampoo/deodorant in many stores. I've never understood why... Do consumers really so strongly prefer hand soap with arbitrary smells added to it?
I think most just don't care and don't really sense it. I don't care when I'm in public restrooms so long as there's liquid handsoap (or even bar soap if nothing else).
But at home I mostly use sorbolene not because it's unscented (I think?), but because it doesn't have my skin dry and crack in winter. Otherwise in summer, I'm happy to just use the cheapest handsoap and bar soap for shower. Speaking of which, I don't like body wash (it's too cumbersome to use) and think it's only been popularised recently through marketing.
All that said, when I'm in a kitchen, I'm more than happy to just use the dishwashing detergent... One time a coworker was astounded I washed my hands with the detergent in the break room; quite amusing. I feel it cuts through grease really well, and saves me having to have an extra handsoap dispenser by the sink. But yeah, the rest of the time it's sorbolene for me if the weather's dry.
Seriously how do people douse themselves in these things that so nakedly smell like chemicals and alcohol?
So many otherwise beautiful people have had their impressions ruined because they smelt like a bar crawl that finished up in a perfumery.
... on "evidence-based" (cf. CDC) v heuristic reasoning: certain aftershaves and similar make me gag.
knowing it's because of petrol is just the evidence i need to become self-righteous about it :D
Wasn't easy on my wife and kids though. They all thought I was a major grump because I became so adamant about not using hairsprays, perfumes, nail polish and polish remover, in our house but that stuff makes me feel like crap and gives me pounding headaches. Makes me feel like a bug sprayed with "Raid" (which is another thing I banned in our house).
As a teen, I started thinking I must have some kind of psychosomatic issues because I'd get to feeling like crap at school, work, church, family get togethers, and dates with girls, etc.
That was reinforced when I noticed that when I did feel like crap if I went outdoors and spent a day a walking in a park, which I really loved to do, I would feel great afterwards. That almost convinced me I was making myself sick when I "had to do" something I didn't really want to do, but I could never nail that theory down because it wasn't consistent enough.
Finally, someone mentioned I might be "chemically sensitive". I had vaguely heard of that but never considered I might be. They inspired me to start paying closer attention to things like perfumes, and anything scented like candles, detergents, soaps, shampoos, and paints and solvents. When I did I soon realized I was being bombarded with them. They were everywhere. At home, at work, at Shopping Malls and stores, and anywhere people were gathered, and those were all connected to me feeling like crap.
So I started avoiding them and getting rid of them in my life but it wasn't easy. I had to be vigilant about it. My wife and kids would sneak stuff in and while I couldn't always smell it, I would get to feeling like crap and then go on a mission to find the source, and I always found it and got rid of it and started feeling better right away.
I've been doing that now for almost 30 years and have felt great (normal) since. And over those years I've realized I can tolerate short durations of exposure better now. I suspect because I don't have much in my system to begin with, and I generally avoid places (and people) that are using perfumes and scents. I've even been able to pinpoint some scents that really smack me down. Something in that "Axe Body Scent" is one of them I get away from as fast as I can. Whatever it is, it is used in a lot of products and I can detect it like a hound dog now.
What's really interesting to me is now that my kids are adults none of them use that stuff anymore because they found it craps them out too. Same with my wife. She can't be exposed to perfumes for very long now without realizing they crap her out too.
I do wonder if others have experienced this. It's not something I hear about much.
My daughters were always stunned and amazed at how fast I would know they'd snuck in and cracked open a bottle of "Nail Polish Remover" (acetone) or perfumes.
Didn't stop them from trying though. They tested me a zillion times with that stuff :D
I started buying them pure essential oils (and carrier oil) so they could make their own perfumes because those don't crap me out. They loved those, so that made life a lot easier for me.
Me, I can be one of the stinky ones, so I will continue to foul up the earth with my soap bar and deodorant stick for your sake as well as my own.
I've lived in Europe and Africa, traveled quite a lot in Asia and America, and what people consider offensive is very contextual, including odors.
I noticed there is some link between how the society handle sexuality and the way we perceive odors. In south America and Africa, quite a lot of countries have a very natural approach to sex, and the body in general, and hence the odor of a healthy non-hobbo human is not perceived as such a problem, even after a day of work under the sun.
In the US, despite having a culture very sex oriented, the population itself is not at all liberated. You are a very sexually frustrated society. And body odor is a problem.
I’ve heard the opposite, that South Americans often complain about smelly European tourists who don’t shower frequently enough.
I’m also not sure I’d choose to use Africa as an example of healthy sexuality, what with the aids epidemic and FGM.
Also, I can't believe that I am actually participating in a conversation about this. Definitely wasn't on my list of things to get done today. Funny the directions in which life takes us.
That's completely different. Odors from different ethnies can be easily disturbing. We don't smell the same and we are not used to it.
> I’m also not sure I’d choose to use Africa as an example of healthy sexuality, what with the aids epidemic and FGM.
Actually they have aids epidemic BECAUSE sex is so natural there. There is nothing natural with stopping a sensual escalation and putting a rubber on your penis. Education helped us to do this, and saved us from dying in mass and having unwanted pregnancy, but it has a serious price on the way we handle sex.
Nobody has said this.
People are really bad at detecting their own odors, though. You're marinating in it all day, so you're used to it. As a general rule of thumb, by the time you notice that you've gotten a bit whiffy, people near you have been noticing for a while.
https://www.amazon.com/Toms-Maine-Deodorant-Aluminum-Unscent...
https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Bronners-Pure-Castile-Bar-Soap/dp/...
Both work very well, albeit I'll confess to liking the peppermint version of the Dr. Bronner's.
https://www.amazon.com/Antifungal-Athletes-Toenails-Deodoriz...
https://www.amazon.com/ArtNaturals-Essential-Peppermint-Euca...
Are there any non-aluminium based antiperspirants known?
Definitely worth a try.
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Trulys-Natural-Lasting-Organic-Deodor...
Lemon juice is not an antiperspirant, though. Just a deodorant.
A bottle of concentrated lemon juice will last a very long time.
It's not toxic, and simple to test on yourself, and you've probably already got a bottle of lemon juice in the refrigerator.
Lemon juice contains a vast array of different chemicals, some of which may be phototoxic. It also releases VOCs (e.g. terpenes). I don't know how much compared to your average deodorant, though.
Of course, no deodorant is a substitute for soap and water now and then.