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Comment by mattmanser | Hacker News Reader

I thought jaywalking is only a thing in the US? I'm not sure who's less informed, you or me, I have no idea about the prevalence of the idea in other countries.

It's not a crime to "jaywalk" in the UK, and I quote it as the concept simply doesn't exist here.

Also, in the UK, if you are crossing a side street and a car wants to turn into it, officially speaking, the pedestrian has the right of way[1].

[1]https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-...

Edit: Seems it's a real mix, some there are none, others have it, some have it but it's never enforced and some countries have laws that only apply within a certain distance of designated crossings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking

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Europe is more strict esp Germany. I heard a story that if you get hit by a car they'll come to your hospital bed to give you the bill to repair the car damage, though I'm not sure how accurate that is.

Culturally, I've noticed Germans will absolutely not cross before the green man, even if there are no cars.

In the UK it is very common to cross even if the man is red. I've been in walking conversations with continental Europeans in London, then suddenly noticed they aren't at my side any more because they stopped at a crossing that was clear.

And in stopped traffic its normal to cross normal roads (ie not dual carriageways ring roads ).

There is also evidence that doing away with the aggressive use of traffic furniture to separate cars and people leads to safer driving. This also reduces the risk of people being crushed against railings and so on.

Even if they do cross, they have the right of way. Outside of maybe the autobahn, you should never be driving a car fast enough to where you cannot see a pedestrian in time to stop for them. It's pretty unlikely that the pedestrian is ever found at fault for an accident in Germany.

No, that’s entirely not true. See http://www.iww.de/va/archiv/unfallschadensregulierung-der-fu... for a summary in German with citations of relevant cases. It’s unlikely that the pedestrian is found to be entirely at fault, though. Tables with with cases and the resulting distribution are at the end.

You have the right of way when crossing against a signal? Why bother with signals then?

What is the alternative? That vehicles have no obligation to stop when a pedestrian is in the road?

I think your reasoning belongs with whatever lies behind the need for the "State law: Yield to Pedestrians in Crosswalk" signs[1] which I find confusing in the USA. In which states am I not supposed to yield?

[1] https://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/K/Yield-To-In-Cro...

That when you disobey an explicit traffic signal, you’re responsible for your own fate?

Everyone has a duty to try and prevent an accident if possible, but you do generally get to trust that a green signal means no pedestrians are going to dart out.

Giving a green light when pedestrians actually have right of way is incredibly dangerous. Why not a 4-way stop or uncontrolled to avoid a false sense of security?

> That when you disobey an explicit traffic signal, you’re responsible for your own fate?

No. That is unreasonable for children, the blind, the intoxicated, the mentally ill, the distracted and the reckless.

It's fine for the driver to be annoyed by having to slow or stop, but they absolutely must do that whenever it's necessary.

> "GREEN means you may go on if the way is clear." [1]

The second part very important. You must always be able to stop the car within a visible distance, and green traffic lights don't change that.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/light-signals-c...

As a way for cars to coordinate with each other, and to ensure there's a phase when cars stop.

Where I live the signals are compulsory for drivers and advisory for pedestrians. It is not unreasonable for the regulation to apply only to the people who choose to create the risk.

That's nonsense. Jaywalking is not a crime or offence here. You cause an accident, you're paying.

//Edit, I stand corrected. It's a very minor offence, costing you 10€ if there's no signal, if there's a signal 5€ if traffic is endangered and 10€ if an accident was caused. 10€ for crossing the Autobahn (or, more likely, your life)

Anecdotally, I once crossed an empty street in Munich when the crosswalk said not to and was promptly chastised by a police officer.

If you’re caught as a repeat offender you may get points or even loose your license. I’ve yet to hear of a case where a pedestrian lost his license yet, though. The line of reasoning, however, is that if you’re incapable of respecting the rules and regulations, you’re not fit to operate a vehicle. This argument has been tested in court and multiple people lost their drivers license for parking tickets, an offense in the same (price) category.

I thought you could get points on your driving license, and potentially lose it with enough violations?

That's true, but not for crossing a street on foot. This isn't Naz.. you know what, nevermind.

Hmm, apparently I was misinformed while living there. (About the points, not about being Naz...)

> Europe

I think you should probably know better than to try and generalize all of Europe on a topic like this.

I don't think you can make a general rule for Europe at large. Germany is definitely very strict about this, most people won't cross if the pedestrian light isn't green even if there's no car in sight. Meanwhile in my experience German drivers always stop to let you pass when you have right of way.

On the other hand if you go to France everybody crosses everywhere all the time and most drivers won't stop to let you cross on a walkway unless you're already on the middle of the road. I don't know if jaywalking is an offense over here but if it is I have never ever seen it enforced. You could jaywalk right next to a cop and nobody will care.

Jaywalking as an offense exists and you might be responsible in the case where you caused an accident, but to be fully responsible you’d probably have to jump right in front of a car or do something equally reckless. There’s a legal construction called “Allgemeine Betriebsgefahr” which encapsulates the danger of operating a car, leading to the default assumption that the driver is at least partially to blame.

In France you could get fined for walking outside of a crosswalk, only if there is one within 50 meters. Not sure it happens often.

When a pedestrian gets hit by a car, the driver is responsible, crosswalk or not, unless the pedestrian was drunk, or actively trying to commit suicide (but good luck proving that).

> It's not a crime to "jaywalk" in the UK

It is if on a designated motorway, motorway slipway or any other highway designated as a 'special road' under the Road Traffic Act 1984.

If a person uses a special road in contravention of this section or of regulations under subsection (2) above, he shall be guilty of an offence.

Nobody is having a problem with walking on motorways being banned - we're talking about this kind of jaywalking (walking across non-busy regular city streets, especially while black):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJFqvRwOiis

I never really thought of that as "jaywalking" -- it's illegal to even be beside a motorway; you can't easily legally get into a position to walk across the road.

That would be walking not jaywalking. A pedestrian cannot be on the motorway let alone cross it.

In France, it is illegal to jaywalk, however is almost never punished, and if it is, the fine is ridiculously small (4 euros).

Pedestrians still have right of way in almost every situation. Also note that bicycles are vehicles just like cars, and they must obey the same rules.

It exists in the Netherlands (although I've never seen anyone fined for it)

As far as I know no such crime exists in the Netherlands. Pedestrians are strongly encouraged to cross carefully, but there are no fines for crossing wherever you want.

It is illegal to ignore a red light, although I can't figure out if there's a law forcing you to use that crossing.

And there is probably some kind of law against creating dangerous situations, but that's not exactly a law against jaywalking.

You can get fined but you won't. The rule is that you have to cross using the crosswalk if there is one within 30 meters, any further than that and you are in the clear.

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