Comment by trowawee | Hacker News Reader

Comment by trowawee | Hacker News Reader

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I'm a little frustrated at the tossed-off reference to Plato and Aristotle at the beginning - "The good life may have sufficed for Plato and Aristotle, but it is no longer enough." - because I feel like that ignores the fact that both Plato and Aristotle, along with a lot of philosophers, actually had a lot to say about physical fitness. Plato was a champion wrestler, and both he and Aristotle viewed physical education as a fundamental component to living the good life. Xenophon quotes Socrates saying this:

"For in everything that men do the body is useful; and in all uses of the body it is of great importance to be in as high a state of physical efficiency as possible. Why, even in the process of thinking, in which the use of the body seems to be reduced to a minimum, it is matter of common knowledge that grave mistakes may often be traced to bad health."

The whole article feels a little too mired in presentism, and ignorant of the history of self-improvement ideas.

>Plato was a champion wrestler

And the name Plato is a nickname -- meaning "the broad/wide one" given to him for his broad shoulders because of that training and physical appereance. Real name: Aristocles.

It's funny to consider that one of the canonically great philosophers in history is known essentially by the equivalent of his WWE wrestling name. It's like if in the future there were classes taught on the philosophical ideas of "The Rock".

Some other amusing related stuff: so, Plato, was called for for the ancient greek word for broad/wide.

Modern english words that stem from the same root: plateau, platitude, plat, plate -- via French and Latin (plattus) from Greek (platis "flat, wide, broad").

Well, the first Pope was literally called The Rock (Peter). Jesus appointed him by saying "you are The Rock, and I'll build my church on this rock".

Exactly what he meant has led to centuries of debate between protestants and catholics.

“No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.”

― Socrates

I think about this phrase regularly (and thank you, because I couldn't remember it precisely anymore). I left a [very] physical job and started to get a bit soft; this is one of the meditations that sprung me back into action.

There's still another, immature, nagging thought that maybe this is what they taught their young pupils with other ends in mind. It's just through the modern, more lofty lens we view these philosophers with that we attribute much more noble intent to such aphorisms. It's a bit cartoonish to think so, but it amuses me.

I don't think the point of what was written is to say that physical fitness is unimportant and that philosophers thought it was just for jocks. It's rather that we're currently facing an emerging culture of striving for perfection that wanders somewhere between insanity and oppressiveness, that it's often used as a marketing ploy, and that it's perhaps (ironically) not very healthy.

I don't know what it's like where you live, but it's cultish where I am. People aren't just trying to improve themselves, they live for it. It's stifling. I figure it's not quite as bad away from Silicon Valley.

You can't just be a person who likes to try different foods, you have to try all the different foods, accumulate Michelin stars (of food you consume, not produce, of course), learn how to use a sous vide, etc.

You don't just go to the gym, you go to the $250 gym. In your $500 gym outfit. You go every day. And every night. For four hours. You go on a serious food cleanse, etc. etc. Your body is chiseled.

You don't just go to therapy. You go to CBT. You do scream therapy. You do MDMA and LSD therapy (I don't know if that's a thing, I made it up). Go meditating. Go to Burning Man. You're one with the universe. You get the idea.

I'm not going to rewrite the article, but the behavior is real. It's "work hard, play hard", no, work hard, everything hard, to the extreme and logical conclusion. Physical fitness is just one small part of the culture.

I think the author, who admittedly sweeps through a lot of strange generalizations on classical history in this article, is just using the idea of Aristotle and Plato "not being enough" to illustrate the delusions of consumer culture. We are no longer satisfied with pure virtue but instead have to buy things to display our success.

I do agree that self-help writers have a strong tendency to completely ignore Aristotle or do some terrible injustice to his self-improvement philosophy, but I'm not sure if it's really happening in this particular article.

Unneeded consumption is not unique to this period. Cynicism could be seen as an attack on modern consumerism.

I don't see how the comment about Plato and Aristotle implies anything about their attitudes towards physical fitness. It seems like he's just using it to contrast people striving for a good life with people cannot satisfied without the "perfect" life.

They spoke of the pursuit and acquisition of virtue as the highest good man can achieve, yet everyone seems to conveniently ignore that these days and pursues bodily goods instead.

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