Hacker News Reader

Comment by smashingfiasco | Hacker News Reader

I hate to admit it, but I have both Transmit and Coda for iOS and I never use them. I've never really used them. I know a lot of care went into making these applications, so I don't want to say it was a waste of money, but I just can't make iOS any more of a productive platform... even with great software.

Honestly, this story/link should be considered maybe a both a blow to the "post-pc" narrative (we're going on 8 years of "post-pc") AND to Apple itself.

MS didn't go about Win8 very gracefully, but honestly, I think A LOT of the thinking behind Win8 was right-on and future-minded. These concepts just needed a gentler, multi-staged introduction. I think Win10 is turning things around.

Also: I wonder if this reality has anything to do with that "cross-platform" UIKit/AppKit replacement PR drop we got a few weeks ago?

View on HN

Careful. People on HN aren't really a part of the "post-PC narrative". People plugging keyboards into iPads and using them full-time to write papers at school are.

I'm not really clear why I'd use Transmit on the Mac either, except that it's a very pretty interface.

> People plugging keyboards into iPads and using them full-time to write papers at school are.

How many people are doing that? A chromebook I can buy as a school computer. An iPad... The idea of trying to select chunks of text and move them around in a paper, or simply re-positioning the cursor sounds like a nightmare.

If I were a kid I'd beg my parents for a real laptop.

Honestly? For writing, for me at least, there's literally nothing better than iPad Mini + Magic Keyboard (no plugging needed) + smart cover.

It's nearly a third the weight of a MacBook Pro, you can stick them in your jacket pocket (the iPad Mini is barely wider than the keyboard), the keyboard is full-size and you can rest it on your lap for ergonomics, and as long as you're just dealing with writing text, the screen is plenty large enough.

(And the keyboard lets you do all your cursor positioning with the arrow keys, literally no different from a laptop.)

For programming forget it... but for writing, it's the best thing I've ever found.

I find that hard to believe. What about basic text editing like selecting and moving around blocks of text, copying and pasting between documents, etc?

Those kinds of tasks are excruciating to perform on iOS.

In essence the iPad is made for people who never learned how to use normal computers.

If you are a person who would mash the delete key once per character to delete a line of text (e.g. my parents) then perhaps the excruciating text selection is not really a negative, as text editing on computers was "always" excruciating. The simplified user experience, is however a positive.

If one really took the time to "learn to use normal computers", then they would be perfectly capable to use a table+keyboard-only interface (and keyboard shortcuts) to do all kinds of editing tasks without even taking their hands from the home row. No need to "mash the delete key once per character to delete a line of text", at all.

So your argument is more true for middling users than for expert users of something like vim or emacs that can do every text edit function quickly with an external keyboard in iOS.

> expert users of something like vim or emacs that can do every text edit function quickly with an external keyboard in iOS

Show me where iOS implements incremental search and a persistent mark, then. For that matter, show me where any OS implements them.

You can run vim itself on iOS. As well as any number of other editors, and tons of standard and custom shortcuts are available -- to the point that not having access to a mouse for text selection is not any big deal for writing.

Text selection on iOS can indeed be a pain, particularly in Safari where it seems to lock onto html divs ignoring your selection and jump to the entire paragraph.

On iPads and 3D Touch iPhones things are generally a lot better outside safari and when editing text. You can 3D Touch or two finger poke the on screen keyboard to activate a text cursor and even select text by pushing again with 3D Touch. you can do the same with an iPad but it’s a little more clunky requiring an extra tap.

Of course you can’t beat a good old text editor.

My experience with a keyboard on iOS has been awesome. Even more impressive is that large handful of the ⌘ keyboard shortcuts work, including some of the globals like ⌘-tab (change app) and ⌘-space (spotlight).

They’re really not at all painful on an iPad with a keyboard. I’m going to guess that your experience is based on a much older version of iOS, but it’s been quite nice for the past few years (and it’s evolving still). Another option: perhaps you’ve only ever learned to do those things with a multi-button mouse? For my experience, I’m extremely comfortable with a variety of keyboard-based systems (especially Emacs), and the iPad interface is totally usable.

> I’m going to guess that your experience is based on a much older version of iOS, but it’s been quite nice for the past few years

I have an iPad and iPhone running iOS 11. I'm not alone in thinking that what should be a basic feature like text selection is awful.

From 10 days ago in the iOS subreddit, "Text Selection is Broken in iOS": https://www.reddit.com/r/ios/comments/7mcvhu/text_selection_...

> How can something so important & basic literally be broken in the most recent version of iOS?!

> It’s been like this for what seems like forever. Having to select some text an upwards of 10 times is pretty annoying.

It seems other people feel the same way.

Reddit thread you linked is about basic text selection via touch.

GP is talking about text selection using an attached/bluetooth keyboard.

It shouldn't need to evolve, it should just work well and it always should have.

Why would those tasks be harder to perform on iOS than on a Mac if you have a keyboard on both ?

Mouse

1 quintillion upvotes

I would be amazed if selecting text on a mac with a mouse was quicker or easier than selecting text on an ipad with a keyboard.

I… wouldn't. I'm so much faster doing text operations on a Mac, it's not even close. A pointing device is just so much more quick/precise for me than fingers.

That's what I don't get about these arguments in support of text editing on iOS. The mouse isn't bound to the physical dimensions of the screen. It also doesn't require you to put it atop/obscure the screen to work, either (unless you're doing something very wrong).

I'm sure there are zippy ways to edit text on iOS, but like you, after using a mouse, hell, even a trackpad, I think it's soooo much quicker using the latter.

That’s because your idea of a “computer” has a command line, Python interpreter, filesystem, etc.

Kids these days don’t get exposed to that so they don’t really desire it. Their idea of computing comes from apps that are take-it-or-leave-it, interact with other apps only in predefined and constrained ways, and use touch UI. They may want a better text selection interface but I’m not sure they concretely know that a “real laptop” has one.

But isn’t that a failure of their education system?

Compare the kids who grew up on their iPads against a kid in Eastern Europe who grew up hacking on a Linux or even Windows machine using a real keyboard. Wouldn’t the latter have all sorts of advantages in all sorts of jobs?

If nothing else, growing up using a real keyboard would mean they could type a lot faster than the one who is used to a touch screen.

>Compare the kids who grew up on their iPads against a kid in Eastern Europe who grew up hacking on a Linux or even Windows machine using a real keyboard. Wouldn’t the latter have all sorts of advantages in all sorts of jobs?

No, especially since the other kids grew up in a more dominant economy and have way more opportunities (which matters more than learning to mess on a cli).

Besides, the degree to which Eastern European kids learn to "hack on Linux" is perhaps overrated. Most kinds in school couldn't even learn to power on the PC on their own (but amazingly one would teach another all there is to start playing some game).

No, because it takes precisely 18 minutes to use a keyboard if you already know how a touch tablet works, and 3 days to learn to touch type.

So, they'd have a 3-day-18-minute advantage in all sorts of jobs

My idea of working on a computer involves the ability to at bare minimum select, edit, and copy and paste text without struggle. As does any kid exposed to one of these 'magic' devices, of which I can assure you they ARE exposed.

Attaching a keyboard to an iPad does not make those tasks significantly easier in iOS, unlike a Chromebook - a device which outsells the iPad and continues to grow each year.

K-12 Sales Chart -> https://d3e7x39d4i7wbe.cloudfront.net/uploads/photo/image/53...

Keyboards have arrow keys, and iOS supports shift-select and the Mac clipboard command keys, so you might give it a try if you’re having trouble with the touch interface. Kids probably don’t have the same issues.

> Kids probably don’t have the same issues.

Your argument consists of imagining that kids prefer iPads to complete certain kinds of work when the data tells a different story.

Chromebooks are vastly outselling iPads and their margins continue to increase. iOS has functional shortcomings at productivity tasks, and those functional shortcomings don't evaporate if you happen to be a kid, unless you just want to repeat the party line painted by Apple's advertising.

I'm not a believer in the magic superiority of kids either, but neither do I believe that sales numbers are a reflection of specific productivity features. Who makes those buying decisions based on what?

Anecdotal, but my kids have school-issued iPads and personal chromebooks. They prefer the iPads for pretty much everything (except perhaps typing long papers). Watching them edit a document on the iPad drives me nuts, because the select-copy-paste process is so inefficient... but it's how they prefer to work.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pythonista-3/id1085978097?mt...

A little pricey perhaps, but great.

Given how good Pythonista is, and how much work the developer puts on it (I’m in the beta program and there are very frequent releases, and he’s very active on the forums for the app) is well worth it if you use or like Python (I don’t even write that much Python anymore, and less on iPad, but when I do it’s on Pythonista). Aside from being on the beta (which would mean I’d have a free copy of the app if I hadn’t purchased it) and some tweet exchanges, I have no relationship with the developer.

>Kids these days don’t get exposed to that so they don’t really desire it.

These days? Kids don't get exposed to those things ever since Windows 3.1, with the exception of the filesystem.

Selecting text on an iPad is a breeze if you use what Apple calls trackpad mode. Resting two fingers on the Keyboard lets you slide around the cursor. A double tap selects the current word. Resting your fingers before moving initiates a selection mode instead of moving the cursor.

Multi-document work is a pain though. Simple school tasks such as reading a paper, taking notes and creating a short essay or presentation from your notes is not a great experience on an iPad.

When I went to the boy's orientation last summer at UIUC, a lot of the parents were doing that --- like, maybe one in every other row. That was the moment it sunk in for me that Apple might have been right about this (if not right about the timing).

"How many people are doing that?"

Probably very few. AFAIK, wired keyboards were never officially supported. Plus one needed the "Camera Connection Kit" adapter (later rebranded as Lighting to USB connector). Plus some USB keyboards would not work.

The only officially supported keyboard option was bluetooth keyboards.

In the real world, I have never seen anyone plug a keyboard into an iPad. I have only seen people use bluetoth keyboards.

Apart from looking nice it works much better and more intuitively than, say, Cyberduck

Which iOS platform, iPhone or iPad?

The newer iPad Pro model with the keyboard cover seems like it would be much better for productivity tasks than an iPhone, for example. Still nowhere near as functional as a laptop for day-to-day productivity - but maybe good enough that you could bring an iPad along on a trip and make a quick edit or restart a server if needed, and leave the laptop at home?

My son decided to hand his laptop to his brother a few months back and try and run his entire music business using just an iPad Pro. It works, up to a point, but there are just so many niggly issues compared to just using a laptop.

Simply things like a booking agency sending him a PDF contract to sign becomes a saga of jumping between multiple apps, importing and exporting etc. in order to get it done and sent back. Sending sound clips to his customers is also surprisingly difficult, as there is no easy integration between services like SoundCloud and DropBox, and even with the new 'Files' app, it is difficult to manage more than a few files in a complicated folder structure and send them on to others easily.

He also found it a challenge to make simple posters etc. for his upcoming shows and send them to printers or even to Facebook. Supposedly simple acts like adding readable text to a photo background was a challenge, and he ended up going through about 6 different apps before he found one that worked the way he wanted to.

Add to that the fact that his iPad Pro pen started to fail after a couple of months, and I think he has regrets going down this path.

Both. I had a first gen iPad Pro for about a year before I gave it to my parents to use for their travels.

The keyboard cover was super handy (I highly recommend it), and I admit that there are some cases where I could have gotten away with just an iPad. But for anything important, I'd need to open a VPN and RDP session anyway. A Surface may have been a better purchase, TBH.

VPN and RDP is a task you can do easily on iOS (VPN is embedded in system and Microsoft RDP client is very good, and free). There are serious real limits in using iPad+keyboard for work, but not VPN and RDP.

Agreed on that! The iOS RDP app is pretty darn good, and VPN connectivity options are really good too. BUT... I discovered that if I RDP into my work machine/network, it totally negates the need for both Coda and Transmit on my local iPad.

Thats the trick... :(

>Honestly, this story/link should be considered maybe a both a blow to the "post-pc" narrative (we're going on 8 years of "post-pc") AND to Apple itself.

Post PC can mean two things, neither of which is invalidated by the story:

1) Tablets, smartphones and so on, being increasingly used by regular people (in lieu of PCs) to do work (writing documents, using work apps on the move -- e.g. airport personnel, factory staff, graphic designers doing digital painting on tablets, etc).

This hasn't particularly caught on, but it doesn't really concern the developer crowd and its more specialist needs. Everyone could very well use a mobile phone to write a work paper today, but nobody expected or predicted phones to have a full terminal/file transfer/scripting/programming etc workflow to satisfy the average developer/admin. That's not a real part people though as the "post-PC world". This is usually conveyed in the "Car vs Truck" dichotomy (I think invented by Jobs), where in the Post-PC world mobile phones are like cars (for regular use) and PCs like trucks (specialized use cases).

2) The other sense of which people speak of a post-pc world is tablets, smartphones and so on, being increasingly used over PC (in total hours/day) in general. Which is true and getting truer everyday -- be it for web, mail, social media access, video, etc.

I’ve found coda to be vaguely useful (and prompt to be very useful) but can’t imagine what I’d even use transmit for.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com