Hacker News Reader

Comment by dmourati | Hacker News Reader

Many people who I think highly of subscribe to the benefits of mesh networking which I suppose can be summarized as simplicity, ease of use, and relatively low cost. I was almost lured into mesh when I changed my mind and decided to investigate Ubiquiti Unifi. Having chosen Ubiquiti, I'm pretty convinced I made the right choice. When I continue to hear people coming out of the woodwork lauding the mesh systems like eero, I keep wondering if their use case or preferences are that different from mine.

View on HN

I've only used Ubiquiti in professional settings (offices) so I don't speak for their "home" solutions, but having used Google WiFi since it came out the advantages over other solutions is one word: simplicity.

I used to have a Netgear setup with a Nighthawk router and repeaters. It took hours of tweaking until the damn thing worked properly. Even after properly setup, performance on the main bedroom was terrible (~6Mbps down, when the living room was doing 120Mbps down consistently.) Handover between APs was terrible too: going from the living room to the bedroom there was a 50/50 chance your device would get "stuck" on the wrong AP. After installing some custom firmware for the router, I managed to improve that (there's a setting for kicking devices once the signal is below a certain threshold) but that was far from trivial. Going from bedroom to living room was even worse, as the repeater was dumb and wouldn't force a disconnect even with super low-signal. I usually had to turn wi-fi off/on on the device to force a reconnect. Let alone the amount of times the repeater would just stop repeating and needed to be unplugged from the wall to come back to life.

Installing 3 Google WiFi APs took me all of ten minutes, performance is excellent across the apartment and I don't have to deal with AP handover. It just works. And it cost about the same money as the original setup cost, with 0 of the aggravation.

Same situation here - also came close to pulling trigger on Ubiquiti gear. The Google Wifi has been gloriously simple and fast for me.

My only real criticism is the insane way it installs updates - at any time, on occasion during online work conference calls, taking the network down with it. The lack of any UI to configure this behavior is maddening.

Personally I haven't had any issues with updates at weird times (although the very first time after setting them up they took longer than I expected), but it is annoying that there's no UI to configure it. I wonder if they do some kind of load check before triggering the update? You'd expect a persistent connection to delay something like that.

I switched from Ubiquiti to Eero and couldn't be happier.

The problem with the Unifi accesspoints (I used an AC Pro) is that their reach is quite a bit lower than standard cheap access points such as a TP-Link Archer C7. The only way I'd get decent coverage in my house was to install a bunch of them, but then you'd still not have seemless handover.

At first I reverted back to My old solution of the TP-Link AP and a Netgear repeater, but once the second gen Eero came on the market, the choice was easy.

I’m curious why you didn’t have seamless handover with Ubiquiti... I have 4 Unifi AP’s and get completely seamless handoff every time, and great speeds.

same here, I have a 4500 sqft home and I use 3 Ubiquiti AC-Pros (one per floor) and I have excellent performance and coverage. In fact, in my case, two of the APs are on the same floor just that one of them is in my foyer area that is open to the upstairs and this covers the upstairs floors. And before I installed a 3rd one in my basement, I had good basement coverage there and now that I have added one to the basement, the hand offs work seamlessly. I checked and rechecked - I have roughly 15-20 wifi devices from TVs, tablets, phones, kids tablets, chrome cast, fire sticks, and probably some others I can't recall and all my devices appear localized to the nearest AP and roaming, typically with my phone and tablet, works pretty well.

For what its worth, most benchmarks and tests back up the OP was saying, that Ubiquiti stuff just doesn't have the range and speed of mid to high end consumer routers.

edit: And I am not trying to say they are bad, just that they were designed for other priorities than throughput and range.

I had similar problems with Ubiquiti after moving to it from Apple Airport Extreme and Time Capsule units. The throughput and range decreased about 40% for me overall.

The best WiFi I ever had in my home was Ruckus Wireless from back when 802.11N was hot stuff. It was way too expensive to keep up with for residential but man it worked flawlessly.

You must be doing something wrong if your handoff wasn't working. My old apartment had them building wide and there was never a problem.

In most cases I believe handoff is a device feature and not reliant on the ap. Ubiquiti does have a service to provide handoff for devices that don't support it but it isn't as good and is off by default.

For everyone using Ubiquiti in a home setting how do you place your access points?

From what I understand they're supposed to be ceiling mounted so the domed side is broadcasting 'down' into the room. I'd imagine most domestic users aren't wiring them into the ceiling so are you just placing them on sideboards and tables sub-optimally?

Tried both. No difference in my apartment with two UAPs.

They work just fine on a table or wall.

OMG Yes. I pulled out my pair of Netgear R7000s, put in an EdgeRouter, CloudKey and a pair of AP-AC-HDs (wired to the ER via Gig-E), some basic managed switches (Netgear GS) and haven't looked back.

I tried the eero when it first came out - it couldn't even handle two Xboxes on the same WLAN, and was slow as molasses.

The Ubiquiti stuff even handles negotiating dark fiber contracts and BGP routing attacks.

I would say their use cases are that different from yours; I suspect for most, one of the primary goals is "I can configure these magical boxes using only my phone, preferably without having to type a single thing." which is definitely not what you get with Unifi.

The unifi app on my iPhone is pretty slick at monitoring my network. I can't say I've used it to do much configuration though.

Maybe things changed recently? I installed and configured 3 AP AC Pros in September using only my iPhone.

Ubiquiti make a one-click home product, it's called Amplifi:

https://www.amplifi.com

Can't say I've had a similar experience.

I pay for 150mbps from Comcast. I was getting around 40 directly next to my old Apple airport extreme. In the basement it was really bad at around 5. Spent $350 on eero and now I get 130 throughout the entire house.

For me it was by far the easiest decision and I've seen real results. Everything from online gaming to streaming are flawless.

I came to the exact same conclusion. The Ubiquiti solution was slightly more expensive but it works flawlessly. Very happy with it!

This thread turned into eero versus Ubiquiti, but swap the brands and it’s the same Rorschach’s test as iOS versus Android.

The eero system is to WiFi as iPhone is to mobile. Either you want to fiddle with your WiFi or you don’t. I used to, now I don’t.

My home needs 3 wired hubs and 6 wireless/mesh extenders. Used to do it with flashed Linksys gear, then with AirPort Extreme plus Airport Expresses (for one relay hop, this worked very well), now with eero v2. The time I saved with eero is remarkable.

- - -

== Mini-review - Eero v2 + Eero Beacons ==

Location is 7,500 sq. ft. and 4 floors covered by 1 eero gateway wired hub and 2 relay wired hubs, 6 meshed eero Beacons, and the eero iOS app.

Setup took ~5 mins per device. Entire mesh self-updated in one go after setup.

And then it all ‘just worked’.

Wired network gets full uplink speed (235 mbps down, 35 mbps up, in my case). Wireless network maxes out at each device’s speed when direct to hubs, only mild drop off connected to eero Beacons.

Roaming is seamless, handoff quick, iOS app shows which eero base or eero Beacon each wireless device is using.

App has all the ‘advanced’ network config you actually need, tons of detail per eero and per connected device, and you can manage individual devices. You can nickname things to better keep track such as when using dozens of smart home devices like thermostats.

The philosophy of doing by and large the right configuration choices for the user worked out well. My tenants are raving about the new network[1], were able to start using WiFi calling reliably on their Samsung and Apple phones.

Apple should just buy eero.

Footnote 1: To be fair, tenants had disconnected the happily working Apple mesh in favor of D-Link because their cable guy told them to. But the D-Link wouldn’t handoff as they roamed the house, so the D-Link experience was especially bad.

It’s interesting that In this thread of Ubiquiti, no one talks much about Amplifi. Ubiquiti’s eero competitor.

I run an IT firm and have the enterprise stuff in my house, but the Amplifi is better compared to eero and is much loved in my parents house (both mine and the in laws).

Amplifi.com

What does the mesh gear offers over the combination of an access point and extender? I skimmed the Eero site and wasn't able to see any kind of a white paper. They do look great though.

If you are just taking about 1, maybe 2, extenders there is no real advantage. Now if you're talking about 2 or more extenders then the advantage is that 1 extender isn't handling all the hard work back to the primary access. The mesh network let each unit work with the other near-by units to share the load.

The disadvantage is that if you get too many mesh node they start talking to each on who can handle the load the best. That can get quite chatty reducing through put. Eero big push was for smarter meshing (less chatting, more throughput) at a cheaper price.

Yep, I was looking into Eero and Google Wifi when a friend suggested I just get a single, more powerful router instead. Got the Netgear Nighthawk and have been very happy

Can you talk a bit about why you chose Ubiquiti over eero?

I can't speak for the parent, but from my perspective:

+ Very secure, with ongoing, regular software and firmware updates (this is big for me, after ASUS, DLink, et al)

+ Extremely feature-rich (both hardware and software)

+ Relatively affordable for what you get (much cheaper than Eero)

+ Modular (upgrade WAP separate from router, etc)

- Complex to setup (requires a VPS, dedicated dongle sold separately, or monthly fee)

- Not many people are set up for PoE; injectors are annoying.

It was worth it for me, as I happen to enjoy playing with VPSes. Plus, it makes it exponentially easier for me to troubleshoot my parents' WiFi when they have a problem, as it's designed to be managed remotely.

- Complex to setup (requires a VPS, dedicated dongle sold separately, or monthly fee)

I just set up Ubiquti here at home and while it wasn't super easy, I didn't find it all that bad. What required a VPS/Dongle/Fee for you? I didn't need any of that. (I have a security gateway, edge routers, and 3 pro aps.)

I bet he’s referring to having a controller but I think you can run it on your laptop, configure everything and then turn off the controller. I don’t think the controller is needed after initial configuration unless you want the stats collection.

I have the cloud key (the dongle) so I could be wrong.

It is easy but it’s still slightly harder than the average consumer would want.

You just have to make sure you turn off the feature in the APs that keeps checking if the controller is there, otherwise they stop working. Or at least that was the case when I got mine.

By default its off. I have 3 AP with ~40 device connected and my controller is in my laptop which usually not even on. Works fine.

You can even set them up with your phones now days, but I think it only works with just one AP.

While I figure most of us using Ubiquiti Networks gear in our home have local VM servers that can host the controller, there are some houses where this is not the case. But in those cases, you can still run the controller in a VM on your main workstation, configure the gear, and then shut down the VM. I don't think it needs to keep running to operate the gear once it's booted. I think if you power-cycle the gear, you'd need the VM up.

I really appreciate Ubiquiti going to such lengths to allow one to install the controller locally, which in turn means you can configure and manage your gear without any cloud meddling.

The gear can be power cycled without requiring a controller. The only reason to need the controller running constantly is if you want stat collection.

I think the wifi captive portal feature requires a constantly running controller, other than that I only start a local controller for changes.

Sure, I read articles that pointed out some of the deficiencies of mesh networking in general. E.g.:

http://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/cn/papers/knightly-...

That caused me to broaden my search. I recalled hearing about Ubiquiti from another group of friends/colleagues who I also respected. When the sr most network guy at my company confirmed he ran Ubiquiti Unifi APs at his home, I started looking at the price as well as trying to figure out how complex the physical setup would be (as contrasted with a mesh).

I then realized I could support my entire home with a single AP and wire the rest of the devices. This made me chose a wired+Unifi solution over a mesh one like eero.

Big fan of ubiquity APs myself, but you may still want more than one AP depending on how many clients you have. I am at about 13-15 clients once you add everything together and I find my spectrum a little crowded. The range on the LR is fantastic though, it reaches to a block away from my home when turned on high (I lowered the signal strength), not that my devices have a strong enough chip to talk back to it though.

I bought the most likely overkill UAP AC HD to solve for the density problem. https://unifi-hd.ubnt.com/ At the time, I was under the delusion I'd be building a smart home. I have since dialed back my requirements but have (hopefully) excess wi-fi capacity.

One thing to consider with true mesh networking is that each meshed hop halves the available throughput. Wifi is already half duplex so with a large network this can cause noticeable latency and throughput degradation.

Any set of dual-band routers with repeater functionality on all but the main node will give you very good wifi coverage. I picked up some dirt cheap (like $20) ASUS AC1200 and N53/56 routers, with the latter being repeaters on separate channels. They will all run OpenWRT, once they're old enough. Not sure if you can say the same about Ubiquity or Eero.

Ubnt was a bit rough earlier on but with their recent firmware and software updates it's a real breeze. Still a bit annoying setting up their secure gateway behind a frontier router with a remote controller, but everything else is spot on. Haven't had a wifi/network problem since switching to them.

I have basically had zero downtime on my home network since switching to UniFi kit (USG + APs) in 2016, apart from firmware upgrades.

Best money I ever spent on networking gear.

Before, I’d usually have to power cycle once or twice per month due to random WiFi dropouts on standard consumer gear (ASUS, D-Link, NetGear, etc).

Have they released the source to the GPL components of any of those new updates? Last I heard they were in flagrant violation of the GPL.

[Edited to make it clear I'm just taking about just the bits covered by the GPL]

Having gifbit internet and going down a similar route you are I still question the benefit of mesh networks. It’s trivial to run some cat 6 through the walls or hide it under carpet.

I’m about to get an Ubiquiti Edge Router and an AP.

>It’s trivial to run some cat 6 through the walls or hide it under carpet.

That's not really that trivial.

as someone with lath and plaster walls and all hardwood floor: this doesn't feel trivial at all.

I'm in the same boat. Things are complicated by the fireplace and chimney being in the middle of the house.

I used an TP-Link Archer C-7 as the main router and an Apple Time Capsule as access point and backup connected via Powerline. Getting inconsistent throughput in the house. Tried moving the Time Capsule around but have knob-and-tube wiring in most of the house and GFCI circuits most of the rest.

Broke down and bought a Netgear Orbi because they have a dedicated 5GHz backhaul circuit. Now I have fast internet all over and the Time Capsule just does backup.

I tried Luma but they don't have the dedicated backhaul circuit and it was impossible to get the satellites set up and operating smoothly. I tried a smaller Orbi setup with the satellite that plugs into the wall but had problems with the satellite losing the connection to the router.

> It’s trivial to run some cat 6 through the walls

Not if you're renting

Almost as good, use these things to route cables along the baseboards: https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Circle-cable-clips-100pcs/d...

There's nothing like hardwired when you can get it.

My renter's agreement does not allow me to make holes in the wall, and that still doesn't help me route cables through doors. Unfortunately I'm probably stuck with wireless :( Luckily 802.11ac is surprisingly effective, and I don't have much if any interference from neighbors where I live.

Not even nails?

It's only trivial if you're planning to repaint your walls/put new wallpaper. Punch a hole, reseal. Then repaint or wallpaper.

Doing it without redoing your hole is much more challenging.

By the way, I have one ubiquiti and I'm planning to buy an additional one.

What's the recommend way to set up, does it works fine with the same SSID for all AP or is it better to set different SSIDs?

I have one in the upstairs and one downstairs. Both APs use the same SSIDs, which I believe is recommended. Haven't ever had in issue with it. When looking at the controller you can see which AP a client is connected to and when. It seems to transition in a few seconds of going up or downstairs. In fact, it work well enough that you can actually track who is upstairs and who is downstairs by which AP they are connected to.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com