Comment by nanoscopic | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nanoscopic | Hacker News Reader

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Let me tell you a short story.

I worked at a company for almost 2 years. One day my manager calls me into his office. He asks me: "Do you like working here?" I pause for a moment, then respond "No. Not really." He then says "Alright then. You are fired."

In my particular situation, I pretty much knew what was actually going on and why. I could have handed him a letter of my two week resignation instead of going through the ridiculous charade of "do you like working here?" There is good reason why people hand in resignations before asking for the details. The chance that you will get suddenly terminated for no apparent reason is very real.

Was I fired for a valid reason from the company? Nope. My performance reviews etc were very high. The manager just didn't like me and the feeling was mutual.

As another example, if one is not enough:

Another place I worked at, also for almost 2 years. I work there through a consulting group. One day my consulting group handler comes to the office and says we need to talk and asks me to come to lunch. No notice before he showed up. After leaving the secure facility, he asks me for my access card and informs me I have been fired.

I ask why. He says that no reason was given. I keep pestering the guy, who I know fairly well, to try to get some sort of explanation. Eventually he says that the only explanation he was given is that the company said I am too smart. He said it doesn't make any sense and he doesn't get it either. To this day I don't know why I was let go from that position.

If I'm at a job and things look like they are going sour; it is time for hardball. I assume that I could be fired at any moment at all times, and I make sure I am prepared for it.

You think "Two weeks is bullshit"? Two weeks is generous.

It should probably be 'one month' and it should go both ways.

Also - if you've ever been a manager, you'd realize that what is 'bs' is that you think you can just 'do your job' in the terms that you think it exists.

I literally have this problem right now with an Eng. who's decent, he technically moves the schedule forward roughly on time - but he's impossible to deal with, cynical at every turn, always negative, does not offer up flexible options when he should - and I hate having to speak to him, it ruins my day.

So does he 'do his job' - he could argue that he does. I have only a few complaints about his ability - but working on a team goes quite a bit beyond that.

I'm about to let him go and I will accept someone who is not quite as good in his wake if they are a better communicator -this person will be more valuable to the company - and my peace of mind is worth something.

For professionals - if you 'don't like working somewhere' you should probably leave. Life is too short. It's probably worth taking a little bit of a pay cut to work where you get along.

I've found that many of the best engineers are quite terrible at interacting with other human beings. What matters to me is only if they deliver. If the bottom line is met and the work is getting done and done well, then it doesn't matter to me if the engineers are complete assholes.

Feel free to drop me a pm of the engineer you are canning; I'd be happy to connect with him on LinkedIn.

Your note of "If you don't like working somewhere you should leave" doesn't really work. You have to stay at companies for a specific amount of time or you will end up with too many different positions on your resume and be unemployable. It is better to stay suffering even at a place you hate to build your resume. Leaving when things aren't going well, or allowing them to get to the point where you need to leave is bad advice.

I am living proof of this. I have worked at 8 different positions in the past 17 years. By all reasonable notions I should be employed at a Principal Engineer level. That said, I am unemployable. I am on unemployment and apply to the most reasonably suited positions I can ever week, for 5 months now. I have only been contacted back maybe 10 times in that entire period and made it to 1 in person interview.

If you want to have a job, don't leave, even if it sucks, even if all you coworkers tell you "you can easily get another job". When you have an offer in hand; then feel free to quit. Otherwise stay put and try not to cause trouble.

> Otherwise stay put and try not to cause trouble.

or figure out how to work for yourself.

> I am living proof of this. I have worked at 8 different positions in the past 17 years.

If you have 17 years of work history, consider applying to a place and only telling them about the last 5 years... see where that gets you.

He'll probably be happy you're letting him go, it's not unlikely he's just disinterested but is cozy enough to avoid seeking someplace better. Maybe he likes some of the other engineers, just not management or the work in particular. I just hope you're this direct when he asks why, and that it's more than just you who is frustrated. I think 2 weeks is fine unless there's a lot of knowledge transfer to be done, but that implies another problem...

One should do one's job in the way one's manager thinks it exists, no less, but the manager needs to make their expectations clear. I had a team member similar to the guy you describe though as an engineer I enjoyed working with him even though management thought he was a negative influence due to his cynicism, negativity, "lack of fire in the belly", etc. He was told as much and asked to change but he ended up leaving the company. From the engineering side management of that team was just bad, a few months later those of us remaining switched to different teams.

Edit: also some people won't like their job no matter what it is if they aren't the ones defining it. They should start a startup, but before that it's not a bad idea to eat and build up a nest egg. Personal job satisfaction is overrated anyway.

>I literally have this problem right now with an Eng. who's decent, he technically moves the schedule forward roughly on time - but he's impossible to deal with, cynical at every turn, always negative, does not offer up flexible options when he should - and I hate having to speak to him, it ruins my day. >So does he 'do his job' - he could argue that he does. I have only a few complaints about his ability - but working on a team goes quite a bit beyond that.

It's not about arguing whether he does his job, it seems like you've already stated that he does.

You've got everything you need to give him the details about what's rubbing you the wrong way. Take that shit to HR, and let them know you don't want to fire him if you can avoid it.

"It's not about arguing whether he does his job, it seems like you've already stated that he does."

Not really - what he 'does' is 'writes code that solves problems we are facing' - ostensibly - because there are so many ways it would be done differently if he was a professional communicator.

What I'm saying is it may appear that he is 'doing his job' - but I'm making the argument he's not.

But this is not a construction site. We can't say - 'pour the cement there and then go refill'.

He's inflexible and making others on the team bend around his designs. He does not reach out to others when there are issues, we have to initiate communication, keep an eye on the situation. He does not work with others to solve problems as a team. When asked for direct feedback, it's generally negative, cynical - not quite personal but almost. He does the minimum required and can't be counted on in a pinch like basically everyone else on the team. He takes the longest to respond to any issue.

Writing software on a team, is like solving a complex problem as a group. If you are not part of the group - then the problem is not being solved maximally.

I will definitely have a chat with him about all of this, but I know what the answer is going to be - and this is a behaviour and attitude problem, it's nary impossible to change.

I've let go of people like this before and the only regret I've ever had was not doing it sooner.

I don't expect people to be chipper sycophants, in fact, I hate that. Dispassion is fine, even a little bit of curmudgeon is fine with me. It takes all kinds.

If someone really does not want to do something, and they have an 'inner negativity' about it - it will take a high degree of professionalism for them to carry on properly. If they can't manage this level of professional behaviour on the communications side to make up for their negativity, well, it's out.

This explanation clarifies a lot about what the problem is with the particular engineer. Thank you for explaining in more detail.

I do agree that it is important engineers work with others and see beyond their own small sphere. It is not a skill many engineers are good at, but it is still something they should be trying to do and do better over time.

Flexibility is important for those writing code. If they just pump out components that require extra rework to make other things compatible with them then there is a problem.

Work is only done and done well when it can be used as it should be. Completed work should not create more work.

Also agreed that having a professional attitude is important. You don't have to love stuff you actually hate; you just have to be able to talk about it and interact on a professional level. If you actually hate it you can carefully state that you don't like it; but it shouldn't affect your ability to interact.

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