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Comment by betterunix2 | Hacker News Reader

My experience in Japan was that the service quality was even better than in America, and if I left a tip they assumed I did not know how to do arithmetic or that I forgot my change. Culture is probably the more important factor in the quality of service, not the ability of customers to leave or refuse a tip.

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That's been my experience overseas as well. In fact, I feel that the service in the U.S. is generally worse than the service I get overseas. For instance, it's not uncommon for it to take half an hour between deciding to get the check and finishing the transaction (I've taken to asking for a check mid-meal now). You also get waiters who are unhappy if you don't order enough or don't order alcohol, as well as a territorial nature when it comes to tables that can lead to inefficiencies.

So in addition to worse service, you get stick with the unnecessary burden of having to calculate a tip at the end instead of simply getting a bill and paying for it. If you're paying cash it can be difficult to end up with the exact change you need to pay the tip you want, and if you're splitting the bill it can lead to frustrations when different people want to tip different amounts (or some people calculate the tip wrong).

That may be. But it is still incredibly frustrating to have to reward the waiter for a terrible experience and literally have nothing that you can do about it.

That said, if Trump's proposed revision of regulations around tipping go through, I'm going to probably greatly cut back on tipping. It is one thing to reward the waiter. It is quite another to believe that the money is going to the owner of the restaurant.

Why is it only the server's service that you get to pay what you feel like?

This steak is nice, but it's not $17 nice. I think I'll just pay $14 for it.

These new tires for my car don't ride as well as the old ones. I think I'll only pay $50 for them, instead of the $75 asking price.

It was a nice concert, but I don't think it was really worth the $90 I paid. I'm going to pay $50.

There was a bit too much traffic on the bridge today. I'm going to only pay 75% of the usual toll.

The difference is whether I have a contract.

If the contract has, "This is what I pay", I am willing to pay that. I agreed to it, it would be dishonest to do otherwise.

If there is no contract, I am free to choose whether or how much I pay. I err on the side of generosity. But if you spill my drink on my clothing, then fail to serve my child, then I see no reason why I should voluntarily reward your incompetence.

Incidentally even if there is a contract, you would be amazed at how much leeway there turns out to be if you have a problem.

For example if your restaurant gave me steak with Brussel sprouts served with it, I'll send it back because I'm allergic to cooked Brussel sprouts. I'm willing to pay for the meal even though I can't enjoy it, but you'd be amazed at how many restaurants will take it back, and offer me a different meal for free.

If the new tires that you just installed immediately spring a leak and I complain, you'd be amazed how many tire shops will replace them for free.

And so on. If you have a real problem with what you received, and you're polite about it, frequently establishments will try to make it right.

"My steak arrived cold? Try paying your rent this month now!"

Unless you are an uncaring psychopath you should pay servers in the US for bad service as well - everyone should be paid for the labor they do. If they aren't doing an adequate job they should be reprimanded or fired. That's not your job though, that's their boss's job. You don't know if they are just having an off day or the problem you had was caused by someone else.

Furthermore, most places pool tips so you're probably docking the pay of a really good server.

Your comment reminds me of http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove and http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html. In your books, either I agree with you, or I am an evil person.

But if I take my clothing to a drycleaner, and my clothing comes back torn due to their incompetence, I'm not expected to pay for the drycleaning. Ditto if the valet damages my car.

The fact that someone put time in does not entitle them to my money. If I receive something of value, I give something of value. If this makes me a person that you do not wish to know, then I'm happy that I don't know you because you sound like an unpleasant person for me to be around.

Not that I disagree with your sentiment, but you're only able to do this because this class of service providers can't effectively challenge your decision to withhold payment. If the damage is debatable (or pre-existing), the valet isn't going to sue you for his $10 tip.

Compare it to the business world, where if you ship a pallet of widgets and a few of them get damaged, you can't just tell UPS "you broke my shit, I'm not paying you." No, they delivered your shit, however subpar, so they expect payment for the trouble. If you keep withholding based on principle you'll find yourself blacklisted and have your account sent to collections.

The difference, of course, being businesses account for mistakes in their profit margins as a cost of doing business and purchase insurance for large losses. A server is an employee.

And to that: a server is very rarely personally responsible for a bad experience. Restaurant service is a team effort and the service you get merely reflects how well management functions.

A small business usually does not have insurance for this, and the cost of making it right comes out of the owner's pocket.

Also while I can't speak to why other people don't tip, the reasons why I (very occasionally) don't are usually under the server's control. Even if the immediate cause of my unhappiness was not under their control, they had the option of acknowledging the problem and offering an apology. It takes a lot to lose my tip.

If you get bad service, whether it's a rude waiter, cold/incorrect food or something else, the best and fairest course of action is to bring it to the manager's attention. They're usually pretty savvy about the real cause. But tipping a small amount just makes a waiter hate you.

It’s also the boss’s job to pay them. So why do I have to pay for the cold steak, and then pay the restaurant’s employee? That is not my job.

Cultures differ even among "industrialized countries," so it makes little sense to compare them. Given your comments in this discussion, it is clear you have never worked in the service industry and you have little empathy for their issues.

In fact, my first job was a typical summer job in the service industry: I scooped ice cream at an ice cream store. There was a tip jar and our tips were pooled and divided by the hours we worked -- it was not much but it was something.

I would not have complained if there were no tips and our salaries were increased a bit to compensate.

No, I do not have a lot of empathy for people who are unwilling to accept change or who think that a company that introduced some new technology should be held responsible for how that technology personally affected them. I have no interest in freezing society in time and only allowing new ideas that have no negative impact on anyone to be put into practice.

> do not have a lot of empathy for people who are unwilling to accept change

As if you are going to change the tipping culture in the US?

I use cash because there are less fees to small business, and I like privacy. You are obviously free to participate in FB or whatever privacy-compromising activity you want

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