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Comment by lkerrekfjk | Hacker News Reader

> Ms Shahnaz was born in Pakistan and worked as a lab technician in the US.

I'm not american, though I spend some time in US, mostly in Maine. Every-time I hear this kind of stories, I can't help but thinking: you go through all that trouble to immigrate to US to build yourself a lot of opportunities for your life and all you end up doing is shit like these? while millions of people are waiting in line wishing for a better life? Same for anybody living an Europe who rushed to go live in the Caliphate... while people are fleeing these very places because of the insane violence... I can't understand this.

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Religion. It's extremely powerful, especially if indoctrinated from young age. And it gets compartmentalized, when faced with opposing facts. That's why we have PhDs who believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

Its not just that. Its also family ties, sense of belonging and identity.

Specifically in regards to ISIS its also about "changing the world" and being a force for "good" in the world. This sort of idea is appealing to those that are young as well as those who feel the need to be "redeemed" or are stuck in some sort of rut. To just attribute it to religion is missing a lot of the background detail of why people do these things.

> Religion

There is differences between some follows of religion and others. As a Theology Student who has read the Koran several times, I can tell you it is not based on the Koran, but more about ideology and worldview and not what their religion teaches them. This is why when most Muslims confront terrorist they tell them they aren't Muslims.

For example Westboro Church's stances and action are not built off of what Christianity traditions, scriptures or historical figures taught them but it based on their own twisted worldview and ideology that causes them to protest veteran's funeral and attempted to protest Sandyhook victim's funerals (Happy to say that my home state wouldn't let them get there)

So slamming all of "Religion" is being disagreeable. I think the biggest thing all of us, especially in US right now, needs to judge ourselves on how we treat people we disagree with.

Nobody cares about the true word of the Koran. Nobody wants a thesis on accuracy of interpretation.

What matters is the most accessible, loudest voice in the space. Just like fake news, accessibility and network effects are the only things that matter. The demand is for one particular religion to acknowledge and tame the spread of this loud, violent "fake" religion/interpretation, if you will

> Nobody cares about the true word of the Koran. Nobody wants a thesis on the accuracy of interpretation.

There are millions that do and thousands of great academic scholars who strive for that. I went to seminary and studied for over 5 years Greek and Hebrew so I could know better, but the issue is MOST don't care. They care more about what so and so says.

How do you know that your interpretation of the Koran is correct, and ISIS's is wrong? All mainstream religions have this problem, and there's no resolution. Christianity, for instance, has 30,000 subsects that can't agree on the most basic things mentioned in the Bible.

To an outsider who may not have studied the religion, that is a valid issue to raise. However, ISIS more or less did not bring anything new, they share ideologies with the Khawarij group for instance. Add to that that we have strong narrations that foretold of groups of people who pray and fast in a manner that makes observers think their own prayers are inferior; they recite the Quran very well, but without comprehending its meanings, and take actions leading to bloodshed and other terrible things. In those narrations these people were described as the dogs of hellfire. From what I came across, scholars generally applied that description to the Khawarij group, but it does not mean that other groups with similar ideologies won't appear later on (we already see what's happening today).

Another clear narration can be found here: https://sunnah.com/urn/245570

I guarantee you that none of the leaders of outlaw groups like ISIS would be able to hold a proper debate to defend their points of view in front of a well-learned scholar, they would get instantly demolished. The issue is that you have a lot of uneducated and/or emotional people who fall for their propaganda and end up joining them unfortunately.

One mental gymnast of your choice is more convincing than another. To you. Big surprise.

If there was truly one well-learned scholar who demolished everyone else, religions wouldn't have these problems.

But all religious texts remain big books of multiple choice where any section can be declared literal or metaphoric or mean something totally different because "context", all on a whim of the "scholar".

Where do you see the mental gymnasium in what I wrote? I think the source I cited was very clear.

I just gave an example about a well-learned scholar refuting ISIS's leadership in a way to show how well established Islam's position is about this topic, that any single person who is well versed in the matter can tear down their ideology. And yes, there is historic precedence with something similar happening with the Kharijites.

This might be of interest: http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/

The Quran does acknowledge the fact that different parts of it may be allegorical: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhkam_and_Mutashabih_(tafsir)

At the same time, there are many parts which are clear, and which all well-learned scholars have agreed upon since the very beginning, which are not up for interpretation (e.g. what ISIS is doing today). Any well-learned scholar can tell you about the Kharijites and how they went astray, citing the Quran and the Hadith, as well as narrations from Companions about how they dealt with them. It is established Islamically that the behavior of the Companions as a whole is something we are ordered to follow, and those same companions dealt with an ISIS-like group that emerged during their time. This is not up for debate.

Other things which are not as grave as bloodshed and which have not been firmly established throughout the history of the Muslims can be up for debate, no problem. It happens all the time. And such topics do not touch the "core" of the religion, only "branches" if that makes any sense.

This point remains: A rulebook that - if taken literally - leads to suffering is not a good rulebook.

There was nothing in what I wrote about taking things literally in the Quran leading to bloodshed or suffering.

I was in the US an H1B worker highly skilled in a top company. I wanted to be a US citizen. US is a great country. But I have to wait 10 years minimum (India queue) to get a greencard and my wife cannot work because is an H4 visa holder. So I left US and immigrated to Canada and is a citizen now.

US should stop taking in people thru diversity visas and family categories, but skilled people like me who wants to contribute and make it big in life are made to wait forever. Your loss US, your loss.

US' immigration system is broken. Diversity visa system & the entire family tree of that person moving to the US in the course of time. What a burden to the US taxpayers !. While skilled workers like me bringing high value to the US economy are being pushed away. US immigration system is a joke. Take a cue from Canada's express entry system and learn.

The article obviously doesn't talk about her visa status, but it certainly sounds like she holds a work visa just like you did. It doesn't sound like she is a naturalized citizen.

I agree the immigration quotas should be higher, though.

No, that's the wrong takeaway. The immigration queues should be full of high quality people who are also likely to make loyal US citizens.

The precisely not how it works now. It’s full of people who will make good employees. Selecting for good citizens is very different, but in the case of bitter-toned OP perhaps it worked in this regard.

>It’s full of people who will make good employees.

Yeah I would agree with that. You can see the conflict of interest here though - with the existing system US Federal Government employees are making decisions about who might become a citizen one day. Presumably, those citizens will then hold the government employees accountable for their actions.

This biases US Government decision-making towards populations that tend to be pliable and dependent on the state, rather than populations who have the capability of building alternative bases of power.

Honestly what this means is that decisions about who to let in the country are too important for the US Government to be making - exactly because citizens should hold it accountable for its behavior.

As an American, I find this opinion offensive. When you say the US needs to import skilled workers you are insinuating that Anericans aren’t intelligent enough or capable enough to fill positions. It doesn’t do my country any good to import someone to do a job while there are skilled Americans looking for work.

I dunno, I think a country benefits when it imports talented people, full stop. Americans can be intelligent and capable, and companies can still benefit from hiring more people just like them (or, in some cases, more intelligent and more capable than them).

Perhaps it'd make sense to be protectionist if there was a fixed pool of employment/business opportunities, but I don't think that's the case for technology workers at the moment--lots of room at the margin for talented people.

I am possibly biased, though. I was in the US on an H1B for a few years from 2008-2011, but left due to the immigration bullshit.

Do you mean the diversity visa program is offensive? Or the h1b visa program? Or just immigration in general?

Wondering, why a throwaway post though. I don't think being happy about Canada is that controversial here. A lot of people want to immigrate there and it's a great country. Do you think it's because it wasn't the first choice and you might get criticized for it?

If they ask my social accounts when I visit US, I don't want them to see my comments on this topic. I was once questioned half jokingly by a TSA agent on my choice of tshirt. The tshirt was of an IC engine schematic. Just playing it safe. US has become a scary 'stereotypy' place for non US citizens.

Good point on social accounts. That's a chilling and scary thing.

there is a lot that isn't about "the earnest citizen" in the US. Yes, we taxpayers aren't pleased about it. Canada is lovely-- you will get good healthcare there even if you lose your job. A lot of us Americans wish the US could learn from Canada. Menwhile, be thrilled you are there!

I am in love with this country now. I am now relaxed, not worried about my visa status. My wife is happily working too. We lead a happy stress free life.

That's Canada for ya!

I've moved to the US from Canada, and my life is more stressful and less relaxed then it used to be. The US is a great place, but its got a kind of crazy, competitive, wild west, make it or break it, work hard, never stop, push your limits past the breaking point kind of attitude. Which can be fun in a way, if you're managing to keep up with it, but definitly exhausting in the long run.

Now, I just keep thinking how nice it'll be when I move back to Canada, after my US "adventures", and get to relax again, enjoy good people's company, and just appreciate a comfortable life without worries and minimal stress.

Canadians kind of do fall into their stereotypes. They're just nice reasonable people, who just want to be friendly to you and not have to work too hard, but know how to organise themselves and work together so everyone can enjoy a nice life.

And since you is a citizen of canada now, do you also take the popcorn for stories like this?

"Suspect in Canada Terror Attack Had Been Ordered to Leave U.S." https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/04/world/canada/canada-terro...

Glad that someone funneling money to terrorists is a cause for your celebration though. At least it makes someone besides the terrorists happy.

Clearly we lost a charmer. I'll be sure to write my congressperson.

"taking the popcorn" is not a celebration. I am sorry you felt that way.

You should take it out. As a native english speaker, I've never heard an idiomatic expression involving popcorn that didn't imply "happily awaiting entertainment."

Done.

It's important to read indictments skeptically. The point of an indictment is to indict.

In this case, her actions look pretty bad. And if she was funding terrorist organizations, then yes, agreed. But consider that she may have actually been trying to help people.

The central issue here seems to be that she was taking out loans to buy BTC. That's not ok under any circumstance, unless of course someone is loaning you the money because you told them of your plans.

Related: "After fleeing North Korea, some defectors want to go back to life under Kim Jong-un" http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-15/north-korean-defect...

Maybe your perception is that you're ultimately helping your fellow muslim brothers and sisters and sacrificing yourself for the greater good. Of course it doesn't make any sense to me but given enough propaganda and indoctrination, anything can happen.

Is it possible that she was framed? Or pressured into it?

You're absolutely right! Both are very, very possible.

Fortunately for her, she and her legal defense team will have ample opportunity to present facts on such precisely this subject! Specifically, during trial.

mostly in Maine

Side point: excellent choice, if I may say.

I feel the same way, in fact, I think the truth of what is really happening with stories like this is probably stranger.

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