Comment by vadimberman | Hacker News Reader

Comment by vadimberman | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I moved to Singapore a few months ago. Frankly speaking, the venture sounds ridiculous.

* the public transport is probably one of the best all over the world (even though the locals keep complaining), with completely driverless trains and accuracy that would make the Germans and the Swiss cry in envy.

* like elsewhere in Asia, it's mostly about the price. Nobody except for the hipster expats gives a hoot about going green, Singapore is green enough already. Grab is kicking Uber's ass, even though the app is buggy and the support is poorly organised. Uber is considered somewhat of a "luxury" service.

* Grab, Uber, and the local taxis are available everywhere at a couple of minutes notice.

* because the cars are so expensive, driving skills are not at all universal.

* again, the price. There are traditional rentals companies, SMove.sg (https://www.smove.sg - a local equivalent of ZipCar, but integrated with the public transportation payment system), and scooter / bicycle sharing everywhere.

Now regarding the self-driving cars in SG. I was very enthusiastic and curious about that one, but was disappointed when I learned more. These guys (nuTonomy?) have their tests around the one-north area where all the startup kiddies are. There is even a sign proudly proclaiming "Autonomous Vehicle test @ one-north". They apparently let outsiders try it out. My associate took one, and it turned out that:

* it's a closed loop, not a real street

* it's slow, golf cart style

* there is a backup car following you with a live driver and engineers at all times

Kinda sad. I was hoping these thingies will go live around 2020. I wonder why nuTonomy even bothered coming all the way here.

>* the public transport is probably one of the best all over the world (even though the locals keep complaining), with completely driverless trains and accuracy that would make the Germans and the Swiss cry in envy.<

Train service is one of the top electoral campaign issues for the past 3 cycles (about 12 years). I don't know the metrics for European countries but my anecdotal experience in Japan is that the Singapore system is not even worthy of discussion. Don't even get me started on the quality of Japanese roads.

Since you're a relatively newcomer, you would not have believed what Singapore was like in the 80s when LKY was in power. I never saw a pothole in my life until I went abroad. Completely serious.

>* because the cars are so expensive, driving skills are not at all universal.<

It's definitely tougher than in the US. Haven't sat for a license exam in Europe so unable to form a frame of reference.

> I don't know the metrics for European countries but my anecdotal experience in Japan is that the Singapore system is not even worthy of discussion.

That's strange, while I liked the Tokyo JR system, I think Singapore's overcrowding is better managed. No people pushing passengers into trains.

I know it was considered an issue and every single Singaporean complains about it. Which is really, really puzzling. You guys should be sent to New York or Boston for a tour.

Singaporeans aren’t complaining because their trains are worse compared to the ones in New York. They are complaining because the trains are worse compared with fifteen years ago. Fifteen years ago it was unthinkable that two of the busiest lines would simultaneously go down for hours during rush hour, but that happened in July 2015. The NS/EW line trains were so incompetently maintained that reliability has been going down for several years now, to the point that outages are now common. This is after years of reliable service such that most Singaporeans do not have cars and depend on trains for almost all travel needs. This is valid cause for complaint.

Thanks for the explanation.

So on one day, 2 years ago, after 15 years of perfect order, two lines went down.

I understand what you're saying about the standards going down and it's good that the Singaporeans are so demanding toward the authorities.

Still, it is not regarded an extinction-level event in most places.

In Melbourne (Australia), for instance, only 87% of the trains are required to arrive within 5 minutes of the schedule. That is, over every 10th train can be late and it's OK with everybody. See here: https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/about-ptv/victorias-public-transp... The average time between trains is 10-15 minutes, up to 20 in off-peak hours. (For trams and buses, the standards are more lax, obviously.) This is normal; Melbourne transportation is regarded as generally of decent quality worldwide and yes, CBD-bound Melbourne commuters generally use public transport, too.

> So on one day, 2 years ago, after 15 years of perfect order, two lines went down.

The Singapore train system has been around for 30 years, but that's not the point.

It hasn't been 15 years of perfect order — my experience for the past year has been that I cannot rely on the train system to reach a destination on time, nor can I rely on announcements, since the government mandates that only delays above 10 minutes need to be announced. [1] On the ground, I have rolled my eyes at the many delays that go by unannounced, presumably because they're only "9:59 minutes" long.

> Still, it is not regarded an extinction-level event in most places.

It's really bad in Singapore because the train system is the only thing that can cope with the population. This is the sight at bus stops when a small section of _one_ line was disrupted for just _two_ hours: http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/commuters-hit-with-2-h...

Just three days ago, our newest line (which is between 1 to 4 years old) was hit by delays [2].

For a lot of Singaporeans, the problem isn't with not being able to use the trains — it's with:

1) the companies not being transparent and forging maintenance records [3];

2) being unable to plan alternative routes because of the lack of announcements; and

3) a Minister of Transport who shifts blame to everything and everyone but himself [4].

--

[1] http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/rail-operato...

[2] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/delays-hit-do...

[3] http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/how-systemic...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaw_Boon_Wan#Minister_for_Tra...

I appreciate the wealth of info (really interesting), but really, if a delay of 10 minutes within a span of half an hour makes national news, it's head and shoulders above the rest.

BTW, the bus picture: I went to Switzerland in 2015; even though it was only a week-long visit, my wife and I encountered a train cancelation because of some kind of an issue with the tracks; everyone was shepherded to the buses in not a very orderly fashion, which looked like your picture. To our question whether it was an extraordinary event, the other commuters smiled and said, nah, happens once in a while.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's a good thing, but IMO you guys have very high standards.

If you compare Singapore's MRT system to similar systems in every city in the world, it will rank among the top. But it's a matter of expectation.

But if you include the massive hype and expectations set over the years — and the performance of the MRT system for the first 10 years — the current breakdowns, delays and obvious negligence in maintenance and how they are currently handled is what makes people here complain about it all the time.

> if you include the massive hype and expectations

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. One thing that no-one has mentioned is the implicit social contract in place in Singapore - give the PAP basically total power, and everything will run perfectly. This rightfully sets an extremely high expectation, moreso than in other countries where a little government incompetence is tolerated, even expected.

I think this explains Singaporean's higher expectations/complaining vs other countries (in my experience).

I'm not sure the MRT would be rated at the top. HK's MTR and Japan's rail operators handle higher volumes so if we take that into account it's more likely they'll come out ahead. But I agree that there is anger because lowering our standards is not in our national consciousness since everyone has been brainwashed to expect only the best from Singaporean Exceptionalism™.

That makes perfect sense.

>* the public transport is probably one of the best all over the world (even though the locals keep complaining), with completely driverless trains and accuracy that would make the Germans and the Swiss cry in envy.

Try Hong Kong trains. A notch better, serving a much higher density population. I also recently moved to Singapore and must admit I'm a bit disappointed with the low frequency, short trains that Singapore deployed.

> I'm a bit disappointed with the low frequency, short trains that Singapore deployed.

Could you explain this a bit more please? I've lived here for 6 years now, been to Japan and Taiwan, consider Taiwan the best of all 3, but cannot compare to Hong Kong as I've never been there.

Taiwan trains are a bit slower than SG, but they are much smoother, where in SG sometimes the older lines (green / red) which still have drivers I believe, are fast and break suddenly that you MUST hold onto something if standing to prevent yourself falling over.

So I'm curious what you mean?

Hong Kong trains (and consequently, platforms) are a lot longer, meaning a train can fit a lot more people. They also run more frequently, especially during traffic hour. Mind you, Hong Kong trains also gets full doing rush hour (it's not rare to have to wait a train or two to get in, meaning 5 minutes top).

What annoys me in Singapore, especially with the East West line, is that there are so many people in the morning, yet the trains are tiny and run every 4 or 5 minutes only. You actually have to fight your way to get in and squeeze. I know the Downtown line doesn't seem to suffer as much, as there seem to be a lot less traffic (I assume the wealthier people who live along this line take their car?).

Hong Kong is bound to fail at some point though. They can't add more trains during rush hour, it's too late to make the station and trains longer, and some station are at saturation already. One of them, Admiralty, offers to commute on the same platform (i.e.: exit the train, walk straight to meet your correspondence). There are so many people that you sometimes hardly can exit the train, as the platform is too packed by people trying to get to the other train.

The density of population in Hong Kong (for the actually populated area, not the land as a whole) is staggering though, in my experience / feeling, a lot higher than Singapore or Tokyo/Yokohama.

> I'm a bit disappointed with the low frequency, short trains that Singapore deployed

I must admit I'm baffled by the short trains as well. In Japan it's common to see trains up to 11 carriages (from memory?) - absolutely massive things and they were still crowded. In Singapore half the lines only run 4 or 6 carriages and sometimes as low as 3! I can't fathom why, if they're already building a subway system, they'd handicap it by making it run such short trains (and they get very crowded). Doesn't seem too future proof.

And don't get me started on the number of doors, just 4 per carriage, which is a huge point of congestion and slows the whole line down. Japanese rolling stock typically has 6 or even 8 doors per carriage; much more efficient.

Hong Kong rocks - agreed.

You clearly need more time to spend here, your excitement will definitely go down.

>> the public transport is probably one of the best all over the world (even though the locals keep complaining)

Did you hear what are they complaining about? There is a lot of thing to complain.

>> with completely driverless trains

On Circle, DT/DT2 and Purple lines only, so not "completely".

>> accuracy that would make the Germans and the Swiss cry in envy.

This is so LOL ) MRT issues are happening very often, can't remember any other country with such amount of MRT problems.

>> Uber is considered somewhat of a "luxury" service.

Excuse me, WHAT? luxury service??

Speaking of the main topic, I do believe that vehicle sharing is our future and definitely going to give BlueSG a try.

> On Circle, DT/DT2 and Purple lines only, so not "completely".

NS and EW lines are currently being upgraded to moving block CBTC which will allow full driverless automation. That's why there are those signs up right now about the early closures!

> Did you hear what are they complaining about?

Yep.

> There is a lot of thing to complain.

Nope. Not in comparison with the rest of the world.

> MRT issues are happening very often, can't remember any other country with such amount of MRT problems.

Have you ever ventured outside of Singapore, I wonder? Are you even aware that the 3-5 minute interval between trains, air conditioning, seamless connections with other transport, no rubbish on the ground, no graffiti, trains less than 10 years old is not a rule but an exception?

I am not even talking about the sorry American subways. Go with the middle of the way level, say, Melbourne in Australia, Lisbon in Europe, or better standard, Vancouver, Munich, Amsterdam.

The only downside I am aware of is, it closes early.

Ah yes. Whiny people. But that has nothing to do with the MRT.

> Nope. Not in comparison with the rest of the world.

It's a very bold statement for someone who spent 2 months in Singapore. Maybe it worth listening to what local people are saying?

And yeah, it depends on what you mean under "rest of the world". If you compare to Africa (with all due respect!) then yea, I would agree.

> Have you ever ventured outside of Singapore, I wonder? Are you even aware that the 3-5 minute interval between trains, air conditioning, seamless connections with other transport, no rubbish on the ground, no graffiti, trains less than 10 years old is not a rule but an exception?

Mate, you're not the only one travelling, chill ) I don't care about graffiti or train age, all I need from transportation system is to deliver me from point A to point B with maximum speed and comfort. Let me ask you one question - do you know any country where metro goes down for hours quite regularly?

I'm not saying Singapore transportation system is bad - it is definitely among best, but it's way too early to call it the best, especially after train collision with 28 injured last month, tunnel flooding because of negligence, few incidents that leaded to MRT closure for hours.

> do you know any country where metro goes down for hours quite regularly?

Of course. In Sydney the trains have historically had plenty of issues, usually around power management. And even in Japan lengthy delays are not uncommon, usually because of suicides (have personally waited 40 minutes in a crowded train on the "chuocide" line while they cleaned one of those "accidents" up). And in living memory is the 2005 Amagasaki disaster, which killed over a hundred people!

I'm not sure Singapore's is "the best" or even what "the best" would mean, but it's world class for sure, and the price is fantastic. Tokyo trains cost more than twice as much. If you factor price in, I'd say the only competitor is HK, which is also fantastic.

You are comparing a relatively new subway system with some quite old ones. A more apples to apples comparison would be with the Hong Kong MTR or the Taipei MRT, or even some of the Mass Transit Railways in Tier 1 cities in China.

I am comparing the user experience.

Borrowing a tired car analogy, I see people crying foul that their Porsche sucks and that their neighbour's Bentley is better while most of the world drives rusty bicycles.

Singapore has a long way to go before it is "green enough".

Reply on news.ycombinator.com