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madengr

Because those probably are not the ones who would shoot up the place.

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A person with a gun is statistically more likely to shoot up a place than a person without a gun.

A person with with a CCW permit is statistically less likely to commit a crime than a cop.

Not until they’re on their sixth complimentary whiskey sour and someone bumps into them.

We're talking about Las Vegas, not Texas.

I'd like to know where to get those complimentary whiskey sours in Texas.

Or you could avoid punchlines based on stereotype that don't actually fit the context.

How often does that scenario happen?

My personal experience says that confrontations over minor shit happens at a non-trivial frequency where alcohol is served. Throw in poor alcohol-induced judgement with firearms, and someone’s going to feel compelled to settle it by waving a gun around. Odds are, no shots will be fired but accidents do happen when you’re drunk. Now, it’s not like this happens all the time, but I’ve seen it more than once with someone whipping out a firearm, and plenty of times over the decades where it ends up in a fight. Keep in mind this is all anecdotal, and somewhat specific to certain parts of the U. S.

I urge you to consider selection bias here. I suspect there isn't significant overlap in the following populations:

* people who submit to background checks, fees, and hassle to obtain a carry permit

* people who carry firearms while intoxicated

* people who are inclined to settle an argument with a firearm

I urge you to consider selection bias here

Consider it? Hell, I openly admitted to it.

Fair enough :)

My own biases include that I often hear people implying that someone with a carry permit is more likely to use a firearm in a crime than someone who does not. That saddens me, and I do my best to try and challenge that idea (gently, in a professional manner) whenever I can.

It looks like I jumped the gun a bit here :)

I would expect that the majority of the latter two groups are also in the first one, and very close to 100% of the last group is in the second one. Do you not think so?

No, especially not the first and second. It's extremely uncommon for someone with a carry permit to consume alcohol at all while carrying, much less do so in public and to the point of intoxication.

You appear to be disagreeing with the opposite of what I said. The question isn't "What percentage of people with a carry permit would get drunk while carrying?" but "What percentage of people who go out drinking while carrying a gun have a carry permit?"

Those two answers can be completely different. For comparison, it is extremely uncommon for a human (group A) to be in my immediate family (group B), but everyone who is in my immediate family (group B) is a human (group A).

I would expect that you're right. Someone who is likely to do the second and third likely would not have the clean record needed for the first.

You mean they're obviously not /planning/ to shoot up the place.

Your theory is someone accidentally brought their gun with them. So they figure: "I might as well just shoot up the place since I anyway have a gun?"

More like negligent discharges or crimes of passion by drunk gamblers.

No, those are the people the NRA claims will stop the bad guys.

CCW citizens are very often the people who take down such shooters. Your comment seems to imply otherwise.

A recent example is the Texas church shooting that happened recently, where an armed citizen with a non-concealed firearm in that case, wounded and then chased down the shooter, unfortunately after he had already killed multiple people. Sadly, nobody in the church was armed, as even CCW holders who frequently go armed will not think to do so at church.

So: Your one example of a CCW isn't actually a CCW?

A CCW applies to storing loaded firearms in a vehicle in a state that otherwise makes that illegal (California). His example does apply broadly (I don't know the specific Texas laws).

Umm, no.

A CCW lets you Carry a Concealed Weapon and has nothing to do with the storing of loaded firearms in vehicles. Though I suppose it would apply if you are in said vehicle and then 'storing' would become 'carrying'.

--edit--

But who knows about California in particular because their firearm laws are wacky. Back when I lived there the rule was "two steps" away from having a loaded firearm in your vehicle, ie: take the gun out of a case then load the magazine (IIRC of course, that was almost 20 years ago).

It DOES pertain to car storage. In most states the CCW is defined as “on or about your person”. No difference between your hip and glovebox. Note there is also a distinction between CCW and CCH. A CCH does not get you out of transportation laws for long guns.

That's why I said broadly, as CCW rules differ everywhere. In CA, it is illegal to carry in public buildings, schools, etc, so they clearly outline and review (in person with a sheriff deputy) legal approval to store/keep a loaded gun in your car (out of site) for these types of scenarios.

My one example? Yes, I gave one example. You're a bit of an ass, aren't you? OK, here's 6 more from the top of Google.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2017/04/armed-citizen-p...

Yikes, please don't do personal attacks here regardless of how wrong, or provocative, someone else was. That's the downward spiral we all need the strength to pull out of.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Educate yourself: https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/

The perfect crime. /s

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