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Comment by smartician | Hacker News Reader

German-American here, I haven't followed the case in the German media extensively, but there is a widespread public opinion that this was a welcome opportunity to punish a pesky German competitor, by throwing the book at them by the US government working together with the US auto lobby. If the same had been done by GM for example, they don't think anyone would have went to prison for even a day.

The other half is asking when the German justice system will finally start their prosecution.

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"If the same had been done by GM for example, they don't think anyone would have went to prison for even a day"

I don't disagree that the government went after VW hard, and it's very likely that the fine would've been much lower had the same crime been perpetrated by GM.

However, I think government took a tougher stance because VW was a foreign company, period; not because VW was viewed as a competitor to domestic car makers. People don't cross shop domestic and VW.

> People don't cross shop domestic and VW.

Huh? Don't most people just shop for ... cars?

Anecdotally, not so much. My next door neighbors won't buy anything but Toyota. The guy across the street is committed to Mopar. Friend of mine only looks at Subarus. My mom hasn't bought a car that wasn't from GM in decades, if ever. I'm the black sheep of the family in this regard, having owned one of almost every brand. Except VW, haven't tried something from them yet.

there are stats for this: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/this-week-in-car...

People do comparison shop and change brands.

people change brands for sure, but within subset of brands, and not across all brands. It's more likely you cross shop VW with Japanese than with domestic.

No specific order:

2 Acura RDXs, 2 Dodge Stratus (coupe and sedan), 1 Toyota Prius, 1 Nissan Murano, 1 Hyundai Elantra (wife's car)

Current - Acura RDX (lease) and a Ford Mustang (buy). And that's just me. I don't think anyone in my family is brand specific. Dad likes Ford but drives a Chevy last 2 cars. Has a used Saab SUV also.

Whatever looks pretty / getting good reviews / fulfills a need. I wanted a convertible this time around; Mustang fit the bill nicely.

Would never say I wouldn't buy a VW - just haven't liked the style yet. I'd buy (lease) an Audi Q5 or Porsche Macan though - their in the VW family. I'm trying to get a Macan when the RDX lease runs out.

Not in the HN tax brackets they don't.

I grew up in a deeply GM oriented household. Ridiculous devotion IMO and it stemmed from my dad's 1960s car era timeframe. Switching brands depends on the person's priorities. I certainly would love to continue buying domestic but GM has been horrendous to me from a corporate standpoint. Long story but I just want something that's reliable and I've sworn on Mary Barra's (now defunct) blog that I'll never buy GM again. I'm a man of my word.

I won't be buying another domestic at all again for gassers. If I get another ICE it'll be a Honda Civic, always liked them and they finally have a hatchback which is my preferred style. That said my wife just got a Suburu Crosstrek and my next car is a Tesla Model 3. I'm expecting fit and finish and maybe minor issues with the Tesla but overall I believe it's time to move to electric and never look back.

I don't say this too often about too many things but I'm very eager to hand Tesla money as I believe in the mission(s) that Musk is on. Tesla being a domestic corporation doens't hurt at all either. I don't own any stock.

I swore I'd never buy another domestic. And now I drive a Chevy. First one I ever bought myself, to be honest (my first vehicle was a Chevy pickup, but it was a gift from my dad so that doesn't count...). I love the reliability of the Japanese cars I've owned, but there are certain cars that you can't buy from anybody but Ford and GM. And so I find myself driving a Camaro SS 1LE. Paragon of reliability it is not, but egads is it quick.

I've owned a fair number of Subies and probably am going back to them for my next daily driver. Unless I get something like a Bolt. Can't see myself happy with a Model 3, I've owned too many cars with touchscreens and I dislike 'em.

I could see some people swaying back and forth, not me though. I had a Firebird Formula in the 90s, 2800RPM stall converter, Keith Black forged pistons, LT1 hotcam kit (or LT4 don't recall at this point), etc, I know what that stuff is all about, been there. I've really had it with low(er) quality vehicles going into the shop. I'm willing to pay more for a less feature-filled, basic car that has a higher probability of not seeing the shop. I'm done.

The one exception is the Tesla stuff, and that's because they're paving the way forward and I want to support it. If I made enough money, I'd stretch my budget and already have a Model S (anyone hiring?). I fully expect them to be slightly problematic. I don't use the most stable software on my computer at all times either. :) Rebooting the computer and dragging the car into the shop are two different levels of inconvenience. Being domestic does help Tesla in my book. We'll be happy with our Subaru alongside. And never ruling out Honda Civics, while I hate modded ones, a nice base 40MPG+ Civic always got my engine pumpin. I get a kick out of efficiency as much as I do horsepower.

Anyway, I'm certainly an example of crossing "lines" in the auto industry. From Pontiac domestic powerhouse to Honda gas sipper to Tesla electric. GM screwed me over multiple times, financially, broken promises from them. That corporation has no use for me to even stay alive, won't get another cent from me. And if I'm not buying GM, why bother with Ford/Chrysler which are also inferior quality to the Korean/Japanese stuff. But crossing mental buying-boundaries, I don't care, I mostly just don't want to wrench or have my car wrenched on frequently.

No.

There are definitely brands that I __will not ever__ buy.

//Most// American Cars: Won't buy because I really distrust the quality of the engineering and the reliability of the end product.

Volvo: My parent's car /always/ had seriously expensive maintenance issues; I don't recall them even doing things half as bad to their car as what I do to mine. (OMG the bumps in the place I'm living right now x.x;)

British Cars: Not even Top Gear UK liked the non-sports car versions.

Mainland Asian cars: Something about the cabin and control configuration just feels /wrong/ to me; I might consider them again if I see one that feels right. This is just based on a very small sample size of rental cars I've driven over the years.

Cars that I'd comparison shop and have on the short list?

Pretty much any Japanese car. There have been some annoying recalls on things like airbags, but I've never been burned and the control configuration just feels right.

EDIT: >> I forgot about Subaru. No data, would consider.

Tesla; They're expensive... but by the time I buy another car (will we still be buying cars?) maybe they'll have caught up. Their engineering I actually respect.

I honestly don't know why the other American car companies can't match that standard... maybe they're too busy being chasing profits instead of building a quality brand the right way.

British cars??? What Britsh cars. Cars made in the UK include (from memory) Rolls Royce (full of German bits), Aston Martin (full of German bits), Nissan (Japanese), Honda (Japanese), Jaguar Land Rover (Indian, was German), Ford (Yankee). These are only assembled in the UK of course. They are made all over the world.

JLR isn't Indian, it may be owned by an Indian congomerate, but management, design, engineering and most manufacturing are all in the UK.

PS: I would classify Ford Europe as an Anglo-German car company : Design and Engineering are mainly in Cologne and south UK (e.g. Chelmsford). There is actually not that much sharing with the US, most of the European line-up is specific.

>JLR isn't Indian

None of this is clear cut for any of the others I mentioned either! They all have supply chains all over the EU and further afield.

Of course they all have supply chains across the world, however nearly all auto manufacturers are still heavily based in one country. Nissan is clearly a Japanese automaker, even if it sources diesel engines from France etc. Following this definition, JLR is completely a UK car company.

> PS: I would classify Ford Europe as an Anglo-German car company : Design and Engineering are mainly in Cologne and south UK (e.g. Chelmsford). There is actually not that much sharing with the US, most of the European line-up is specific.

Note this is slowly changing now, with ever less duplication of similar car models around the world.

Indeed, especially with the (very gradual) hatchbacking and downsizing of the US market

  British cars??? What Britsh cars.

If you only want two seats and you're not very price-sensitive: http://www.lotuscars.com/ https://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/ http://cars.mclaren.com/

Needless to say, they'll all contain foreign-made components.

Lotus is a subsidiary of a Chinese auto group of course. But the other two make fine British cars!

Sure they do. If you're in the market for a hot hatch you're probably getting a VW GTI or a Ford Focus ST.

Not in the diesel market though. No US manufacturer sells a diesel passenger car in the USA.

Chevy Cruze?

I personally don't know whether that's true. But even if it is it is a claim dramatically smaller in scope than the one I was replying to.

As far as I can tell, the Staatsanwaltschaft Braunschweig (which has jurisdiction over the headquarters in Wolfsburg) opened investigations at the beginning of the year against a few dozen executives, including then-chairman-of-the-board Winterkorn (http://www.staatsanwaltschaften.niedersachsen.de/startseite/...).

I don't know of any charges so far, which is worrying, but the StA put "the end of the year" as their target for convicting people, so they clearly expect these cases to take on the order of a year or two to carry through. http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/braunschweig_har...

Audi's former head of R&D, Ulrich Hackenburg, and Porsche's former head of engine developent, Wolfgang Hatz, are the other big two (aside from Winterkorn) in the crosshairs.

Not "just engineers". They were, but they were responsible for some extraordinarily impressive stuff when they were. Hatz also presided over powertrain development for what is indisputably Porsche's truly golden era for its sports cars, where they are almost never regarded as anything but some of the best on the planet.

You realize the VW is also a part a of the US economy right?

They invested a billion dollars building out their facility in Chattanooga, TN and employ thousands of people, contributing to the economy and tax coffers. This is not their first plant either.

Hurting VW also hurts Americans and the local economy there.

Any US Auto Lobby also represents VW, Honda and Toyota in addition to Ford, GM and Chrysler. They all make cars in the US and have significant operation there.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Chattanooga_Assembl...

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America

The question is whether the overall gains outnumber the local losses.

Cheating on emission endangers the whole planet, protecting few workers is the last concern here, especially since tables are readily available to convert the estimated emissions in deaths and other long term damage and the numbers aren’t pretty

Nowhere in my comment is there anything that even remotely condones cheating or protecting people who do so.

If you actually read the parent post post that I was responding to:

>"but there is a widespread public opinion that this was a welcome opportunity to punish a pesky German competitor, by throwing the book at them by the US government working together with the US auto lobby"

It's clear that I was responding to the silly suggestion of there being a conspiracy by the US against a "German" competitor since VW is also a US car manufacturer.

The level of emissions achieved by the "cheating" was perfectly legal only a few years ago, just for perspective.

And in the USA at least, there just aren't enough diesel cars to really make a difference. Almost all diesel vehicles here are heavy trucks and busses and they dwarf the emissions of the cars to the point of making them inconsequential.

I fail to see how higher NOx "endangers the whole planet" when under that mode of operation they were better on fuel economy (i.e. lower CO2 emissions, etc)

there ya go http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...

29000 people != the whole planet

I don't mean to say that it isn't terrible that any people die because of transport emissions ... but the alternative was to emit more CO2 ... we don't know the exact human cost of that ... but it is not zero.

VW ultimately paid less a lot less in settlement money than the law might have required if no settlement occurred. Furthermore, when negotiating legal settlements with the US government, the level cooperation is a critical factor. VW actively deceived regulators for several months after they started investigating the defeat devices. Domestic companies who cooperate fully frequently receive billion dollar fines, so the scale of the fine VW paid is not out of line.

I mean, compare VW's massive criminal conspiracy to cheat on pollution tests and poison the earth and willfully lie about it when confronted, to Apple negotiating a tax deal with Ireland, and tell me VW's similar payment is unfairly high.

Before the clean diesel lie was uncovered, environmental scientists were mystified as to why European cities had so much fine particulate pollution, which has led to thousands of deaths [1]. So maybe we should be happy that this age of international corporate law enforcement has allowed locally influential multinationals to be held to account.

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2...

That’s not an excuse for not coercing execs guilty of fraud into jail. If the US government had been lighter on GM, that would have been unfair, but’s a separate issue. Justice is due, and it’s unfair to the lowly that just living abroad is enough to dodge responsibilities.

They have started the prosecution right after the scandal broke.

Not really.

In 2014, the EPA was informed of the scandal, and the university doing the research, published that 6 major car manufacturers all used defeat devices, including GM, Ford, and VW.

Prosecution started in 2015, and only against VW.

Yes, I don't understand why only VW is being prosecuted when it was/is most car makers cheating tests.

This is like when the US went after the Swiss Banks which paid Billions in fines, yet none of the US banks got in trouble although they where all doing the same thing.

That doesn't sound right. West Virginia University's 2014 report to the ICCT only included 3 cars, 2 of which were VWs. There's a unpublished report by WVU with suspicions on Fiat-Chrysler, but that's been floating around this year. The EPA did reprimand 6 manufacturers including GM & Ford for defeat devices, but that was back in 1973. There's a civil class action brewing against GM truck diesels and I understand that Germany has been recently looking into emissions of the Ford Mondeo, but neither of them are via the actions of the EPA.

>Prosecution started in 2015, and only against VW.

Why not? They were the ones that fraudulently claimed they could achieve low emissions without urea injection, used defeat devices, and impeded the investigation into their malfeasance.

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