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Comment by ryanwaggoner | Hacker News Reader

Having been transferred back to Germany, he came to the United States for a vacation with his wife and was seized as he waited for a departing flight in Miami.

That was an expensive vacation.

Seriously, good to see justice served. Curious to see what Germany does to the top execs there.

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German-American here, I haven't followed the case in the German media extensively, but there is a widespread public opinion that this was a welcome opportunity to punish a pesky German competitor, by throwing the book at them by the US government working together with the US auto lobby. If the same had been done by GM for example, they don't think anyone would have went to prison for even a day.

The other half is asking when the German justice system will finally start their prosecution.

"If the same had been done by GM for example, they don't think anyone would have went to prison for even a day"

I don't disagree that the government went after VW hard, and it's very likely that the fine would've been much lower had the same crime been perpetrated by GM.

However, I think government took a tougher stance because VW was a foreign company, period; not because VW was viewed as a competitor to domestic car makers. People don't cross shop domestic and VW.

> People don't cross shop domestic and VW.

Huh? Don't most people just shop for ... cars?

No.

There are definitely brands that I __will not ever__ buy.

//Most// American Cars: Won't buy because I really distrust the quality of the engineering and the reliability of the end product.

Volvo: My parent's car /always/ had seriously expensive maintenance issues; I don't recall them even doing things half as bad to their car as what I do to mine. (OMG the bumps in the place I'm living right now x.x;)

British Cars: Not even Top Gear UK liked the non-sports car versions.

Mainland Asian cars: Something about the cabin and control configuration just feels /wrong/ to me; I might consider them again if I see one that feels right. This is just based on a very small sample size of rental cars I've driven over the years.

Cars that I'd comparison shop and have on the short list?

Pretty much any Japanese car. There have been some annoying recalls on things like airbags, but I've never been burned and the control configuration just feels right.

EDIT: >> I forgot about Subaru. No data, would consider.

Tesla; They're expensive... but by the time I buy another car (will we still be buying cars?) maybe they'll have caught up. Their engineering I actually respect.

I honestly don't know why the other American car companies can't match that standard... maybe they're too busy being chasing profits instead of building a quality brand the right way.

British cars??? What Britsh cars. Cars made in the UK include (from memory) Rolls Royce (full of German bits), Aston Martin (full of German bits), Nissan (Japanese), Honda (Japanese), Jaguar Land Rover (Indian, was German), Ford (Yankee). These are only assembled in the UK of course. They are made all over the world.

  British cars??? What Britsh cars.

If you only want two seats and you're not very price-sensitive: http://www.lotuscars.com/ https://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/ http://cars.mclaren.com/

Needless to say, they'll all contain foreign-made components.

Lotus is a subsidiary of a Chinese auto group of course. But the other two make fine British cars!

JLR isn't Indian, it may be owned by an Indian congomerate, but management, design, engineering and most manufacturing are all in the UK.

PS: I would classify Ford Europe as an Anglo-German car company : Design and Engineering are mainly in Cologne and south UK (e.g. Chelmsford). There is actually not that much sharing with the US, most of the European line-up is specific.

> PS: I would classify Ford Europe as an Anglo-German car company : Design and Engineering are mainly in Cologne and south UK (e.g. Chelmsford). There is actually not that much sharing with the US, most of the European line-up is specific.

Note this is slowly changing now, with ever less duplication of similar car models around the world.

Indeed, especially with the (very gradual) hatchbacking and downsizing of the US market

>JLR isn't Indian

None of this is clear cut for any of the others I mentioned either! They all have supply chains all over the EU and further afield.

Of course they all have supply chains across the world, however nearly all auto manufacturers are still heavily based in one country. Nissan is clearly a Japanese automaker, even if it sources diesel engines from France etc. Following this definition, JLR is completely a UK car company.

Anecdotally, not so much. My next door neighbors won't buy anything but Toyota. The guy across the street is committed to Mopar. Friend of mine only looks at Subarus. My mom hasn't bought a car that wasn't from GM in decades, if ever. I'm the black sheep of the family in this regard, having owned one of almost every brand. Except VW, haven't tried something from them yet.

I grew up in a deeply GM oriented household. Ridiculous devotion IMO and it stemmed from my dad's 1960s car era timeframe. Switching brands depends on the person's priorities. I certainly would love to continue buying domestic but GM has been horrendous to me from a corporate standpoint. Long story but I just want something that's reliable and I've sworn on Mary Barra's (now defunct) blog that I'll never buy GM again. I'm a man of my word.

I won't be buying another domestic at all again for gassers. If I get another ICE it'll be a Honda Civic, always liked them and they finally have a hatchback which is my preferred style. That said my wife just got a Suburu Crosstrek and my next car is a Tesla Model 3. I'm expecting fit and finish and maybe minor issues with the Tesla but overall I believe it's time to move to electric and never look back.

I don't say this too often about too many things but I'm very eager to hand Tesla money as I believe in the mission(s) that Musk is on. Tesla being a domestic corporation doens't hurt at all either. I don't own any stock.

I swore I'd never buy another domestic. And now I drive a Chevy. First one I ever bought myself, to be honest (my first vehicle was a Chevy pickup, but it was a gift from my dad so that doesn't count...). I love the reliability of the Japanese cars I've owned, but there are certain cars that you can't buy from anybody but Ford and GM. And so I find myself driving a Camaro SS 1LE. Paragon of reliability it is not, but egads is it quick.

I've owned a fair number of Subies and probably am going back to them for my next daily driver. Unless I get something like a Bolt. Can't see myself happy with a Model 3, I've owned too many cars with touchscreens and I dislike 'em.

I could see some people swaying back and forth, not me though. I had a Firebird Formula in the 90s, 2800RPM stall converter, Keith Black forged pistons, LT1 hotcam kit (or LT4 don't recall at this point), etc, I know what that stuff is all about, been there. I've really had it with low(er) quality vehicles going into the shop. I'm willing to pay more for a less feature-filled, basic car that has a higher probability of not seeing the shop. I'm done.

The one exception is the Tesla stuff, and that's because they're paving the way forward and I want to support it. If I made enough money, I'd stretch my budget and already have a Model S (anyone hiring?). I fully expect them to be slightly problematic. I don't use the most stable software on my computer at all times either. :) Rebooting the computer and dragging the car into the shop are two different levels of inconvenience. Being domestic does help Tesla in my book. We'll be happy with our Subaru alongside. And never ruling out Honda Civics, while I hate modded ones, a nice base 40MPG+ Civic always got my engine pumpin. I get a kick out of efficiency as much as I do horsepower.

Anyway, I'm certainly an example of crossing "lines" in the auto industry. From Pontiac domestic powerhouse to Honda gas sipper to Tesla electric. GM screwed me over multiple times, financially, broken promises from them. That corporation has no use for me to even stay alive, won't get another cent from me. And if I'm not buying GM, why bother with Ford/Chrysler which are also inferior quality to the Korean/Japanese stuff. But crossing mental buying-boundaries, I don't care, I mostly just don't want to wrench or have my car wrenched on frequently.

there are stats for this: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/this-week-in-car...

People do comparison shop and change brands.

people change brands for sure, but within subset of brands, and not across all brands. It's more likely you cross shop VW with Japanese than with domestic.

No specific order:

2 Acura RDXs, 2 Dodge Stratus (coupe and sedan), 1 Toyota Prius, 1 Nissan Murano, 1 Hyundai Elantra (wife's car)

Current - Acura RDX (lease) and a Ford Mustang (buy). And that's just me. I don't think anyone in my family is brand specific. Dad likes Ford but drives a Chevy last 2 cars. Has a used Saab SUV also.

Whatever looks pretty / getting good reviews / fulfills a need. I wanted a convertible this time around; Mustang fit the bill nicely.

Would never say I wouldn't buy a VW - just haven't liked the style yet. I'd buy (lease) an Audi Q5 or Porsche Macan though - their in the VW family. I'm trying to get a Macan when the RDX lease runs out.

Not in the HN tax brackets they don't.

Sure they do. If you're in the market for a hot hatch you're probably getting a VW GTI or a Ford Focus ST.

Not in the diesel market though. No US manufacturer sells a diesel passenger car in the USA.

I personally don't know whether that's true. But even if it is it is a claim dramatically smaller in scope than the one I was replying to.

Chevy Cruze?

As far as I can tell, the Staatsanwaltschaft Braunschweig (which has jurisdiction over the headquarters in Wolfsburg) opened investigations at the beginning of the year against a few dozen executives, including then-chairman-of-the-board Winterkorn (http://www.staatsanwaltschaften.niedersachsen.de/startseite/...).

I don't know of any charges so far, which is worrying, but the StA put "the end of the year" as their target for convicting people, so they clearly expect these cases to take on the order of a year or two to carry through. http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niedersachsen/braunschweig_har...

Audi's former head of R&D, Ulrich Hackenburg, and Porsche's former head of engine developent, Wolfgang Hatz, are the other big two (aside from Winterkorn) in the crosshairs.

Not "just engineers". They were, but they were responsible for some extraordinarily impressive stuff when they were. Hatz also presided over powertrain development for what is indisputably Porsche's truly golden era for its sports cars, where they are almost never regarded as anything but some of the best on the planet.

You realize the VW is also a part a of the US economy right?

They invested a billion dollars building out their facility in Chattanooga, TN and employ thousands of people, contributing to the economy and tax coffers. This is not their first plant either.

Hurting VW also hurts Americans and the local economy there.

Any US Auto Lobby also represents VW, Honda and Toyota in addition to Ford, GM and Chrysler. They all make cars in the US and have significant operation there.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Chattanooga_Assembl...

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America

The question is whether the overall gains outnumber the local losses.

Cheating on emission endangers the whole planet, protecting few workers is the last concern here, especially since tables are readily available to convert the estimated emissions in deaths and other long term damage and the numbers aren’t pretty

Nowhere in my comment is there anything that even remotely condones cheating or protecting people who do so.

If you actually read the parent post post that I was responding to:

>"but there is a widespread public opinion that this was a welcome opportunity to punish a pesky German competitor, by throwing the book at them by the US government working together with the US auto lobby"

It's clear that I was responding to the silly suggestion of there being a conspiracy by the US against a "German" competitor since VW is also a US car manufacturer.

The level of emissions achieved by the "cheating" was perfectly legal only a few years ago, just for perspective.

And in the USA at least, there just aren't enough diesel cars to really make a difference. Almost all diesel vehicles here are heavy trucks and busses and they dwarf the emissions of the cars to the point of making them inconsequential.

I fail to see how higher NOx "endangers the whole planet" when under that mode of operation they were better on fuel economy (i.e. lower CO2 emissions, etc)

there ya go http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...

29000 people != the whole planet

I don't mean to say that it isn't terrible that any people die because of transport emissions ... but the alternative was to emit more CO2 ... we don't know the exact human cost of that ... but it is not zero.

VW ultimately paid less a lot less in settlement money than the law might have required if no settlement occurred. Furthermore, when negotiating legal settlements with the US government, the level cooperation is a critical factor. VW actively deceived regulators for several months after they started investigating the defeat devices. Domestic companies who cooperate fully frequently receive billion dollar fines, so the scale of the fine VW paid is not out of line.

I mean, compare VW's massive criminal conspiracy to cheat on pollution tests and poison the earth and willfully lie about it when confronted, to Apple negotiating a tax deal with Ireland, and tell me VW's similar payment is unfairly high.

Before the clean diesel lie was uncovered, environmental scientists were mystified as to why European cities had so much fine particulate pollution, which has led to thousands of deaths [1]. So maybe we should be happy that this age of international corporate law enforcement has allowed locally influential multinationals to be held to account.

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2...

That’s not an excuse for not coercing execs guilty of fraud into jail. If the US government had been lighter on GM, that would have been unfair, but’s a separate issue. Justice is due, and it’s unfair to the lowly that just living abroad is enough to dodge responsibilities.

They have started the prosecution right after the scandal broke.

Not really.

In 2014, the EPA was informed of the scandal, and the university doing the research, published that 6 major car manufacturers all used defeat devices, including GM, Ford, and VW.

Prosecution started in 2015, and only against VW.

That doesn't sound right. West Virginia University's 2014 report to the ICCT only included 3 cars, 2 of which were VWs. There's a unpublished report by WVU with suspicions on Fiat-Chrysler, but that's been floating around this year. The EPA did reprimand 6 manufacturers including GM & Ford for defeat devices, but that was back in 1973. There's a civil class action brewing against GM truck diesels and I understand that Germany has been recently looking into emissions of the Ford Mondeo, but neither of them are via the actions of the EPA.

>Prosecution started in 2015, and only against VW.

Why not? They were the ones that fraudulently claimed they could achieve low emissions without urea injection, used defeat devices, and impeded the investigation into their malfeasance.

Yes, I don't understand why only VW is being prosecuted when it was/is most car makers cheating tests.

This is like when the US went after the Swiss Banks which paid Billions in fines, yet none of the US banks got in trouble although they where all doing the same thing.

I dunno. Benefit of the doubt, let's go Stanley Milgram on this. He had people in authority telling him this was okay. Lawyers gave him the go-ahead. As stated in other comments, he didn't make a whole lot of money.

I feel like this guy could have been a lot of people we know. You get asked to cook some numbers, it comes in all official, legal even signs off on it, and now you're liable. Whistle blowing is not an easy thing to do. Not when you're in that deep.

I feel like the people at the top should be thrown in jail, but they can't because they're all in Germany. Meanwhile, is Germany going to let this guy rot, when really their government should offer to extradite one of the people at the top who had full knowledge and authorization over this, in exchange for commuting this patsy's sentence?

Let's go back to the Stanley Milgram experiments. Say Milgram was a sick fuck and those people did administer a lethal dosage to the guy in the other room. Who would go to jail?

These people committed the systematic, deliberate, and stealthy statistical murders of dozens of US citizens. They deserve no benefit of the doubt whatsoever. They knew exactly what they were doing. "Just following orders" was not a valid defense at the Nuremberg trials and it should not be here either.

Throw everyone we can get our hands on in jail pour encourager les autres. Once it becomes clear that anyone participating in such a scheme, at any level, faces years in prison, it will be less likely to happen again, and as a direct result hundreds of fewer Americans will not be murdered by illegal air pollution in the future.

> These people committed the systematic, deliberate, and stealthy statistical murders of dozens of US citizens.

Every car manufacturer currently does. Some even literally killed people by cheaping out on braking systems.

Yet no US car executive is in jail.

This is purely a political play.

VW actively deceived regulators in a coordinated manner for months after they started investigating and asking questions about the defeat devices. This is not normal behavior for a car manufacturer or any public company under investigation. They produced tons of fraudulent data, took regulators for fools, and went so far as to stage a recall they knew ahead of time wouldn't solve the problem, all while millions of cars continued spewing cancer-causing diesel fine particulates. It would be shocking if the hammer didn't come down hard in those circumstances.

This response is pure whataboutism. Any other people responsible for similar deliberate murder should also be similarly prosecuted.

Extraditing a German citizen to the United States? Not going to happen. Constitutionally forbidden.

By the way, Germany operates jails, as well. It's not like the United States have to prosecute everything on the planet themselves.

It seems rather reasonable for the United States to prosecute Germans for defrauding the US government and evading US air pollution law in order to sell their cars in the United States.

Kim Dotcom, a German citizen, is being extradited to a country he has never set foot in, for something that is not a crime in New Zealand.

Germany has not extradited Kim Dotcom.

> good to see justice served

I believe his participation in fraud should have repercussions, but I hardly feel like caging him up for 7 years is "justice". I'm not saying I know what the perfect justice would be, but I think it should be closer to restitution to those he harmed, rather than just punishment.

Ultimately, I think incarceration is a savage practice, and I hope for the day we're able to deliver justice without resorting to locking someone up. I think humanity will eventually look back at our practice of mass incarceration as quite primitive.

Unfortunately, I really believe that jail is the only deterrent for these people. Fines aren't going to do anything; they already have enough money that they never have to work, and you're never going to fine them enough for that to change.

If I kill someone and rob them of the next 50 years of their life, how long should I be in prison for?

This guy, statistically, was involved in a scheme that robbed a whole lot more people of a whole lot more years than that due to the effects if pollution on public health.

What do you propose to do with criminals that pose a direct risk to society? (e.g. serial killers)

And we also have to note that competitors may have been between the allowed bounds, but still polluting. Everyone is guilty of pollution, VW is only guilty of cheating.

If a people and their state have decided that a million cars are beneficial enough to cost 100 statistical deaths through pollution, it isn’t up to executives at the manufacturer to decide that they really meant 200 deaths.

It’s the same with other faulty products on an individual scale. People make daily decisions based on vague ideas about the risks involved, not with the idea that they avoid all risk. For example you aren’t allowed to pack a parachute incorrectly on the basis that skydiving is dangerous anyway.

Kind of surprising that he returned to the USA (talk about cocky!)

I wonder if the USA would've gone through the diplomatic rigmarole to get him extradited. Anyone familiar with these sorts of cases have an opinion?

The article talks at length about how Germany refuses to extradite its own citizens, and even mentions an VW exec of Italian nationality arrested in Germany who is expected to be extradited.

> and even mentions an VW exec of Italian nationality arrested in Germany who is expected to be extradited.

That’s very unlikely, though.

The current legal consensus is that the German constitution bans any extradition of any person to a country that has death penalty (no matter if the person faces it or not)

Well, that's some egg on my face. Thanks for pointing it out!

> Curious to see what Germany does to the top execs there.

Around as much as the US doe to rich politically linked US execs. Practical example: remind me how much was GM fined, and how long did the exec serve for emission cheating ?

GM hasn't been found to have cheated yet. So far there is a class action lawsuit by a private firm that has tested one truck.

What about their ignition scandal - did anyone go to jail for that?

I'd argue there is a difference between making a faulty product and then failing to fix it, and intentionally making a device to circumvent the law.

GM also paid 900 million dollars to the government as a fine and set aside 600 million to pay victims of the car.

A report was commissioned which basically says GM failed to understand its own cars enough to understand why the failure was important. Another apparent compounding factor was the 2008 bankruptcy of GM.

http://www.beasleyallen.com/webfiles/valukas-report-on-gm-re...

Intent matters as far as the law is concerned. A lot.

"Curious to see what Germany does to the top execs there."

Most likely nothing from what I can see in the news.

That's why top executives' homes were raided? So that "nothing" will happen?

Do you really think one of the big guys will go to jail? Somebody like Winterkorn? Maybe some little guy will be made the fall guy and it will end up like banks in 2008.

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