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> I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard

Agree.

So much so, that I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches) to replace the previous-generation Apple Wireless Keyboard.

The new MacBook Pro keyboard is the best I've ever used. My fingers feel like they're flying over the keys. And I've owned all sorts of mechanical keyboards, ThinkPads, and odd devices like the DataHand.

I really don't understand all the hate for the new keyboard. Or USB-C. Or the Touch Bar.

I'm here to third this assessment. The feel of the butterfly switch is so much better for long bouts of coding/typing and, in my particular case, improved accuracy.

I think the issue is that the scissors switch encourages typing using the tips of the fingers (deeper key travel) whereas the butterfly keys encourage using the pads of the fingers which reduces exertion and fatigue.

My understanding is that the failure rate for the butterfly keys is "significant [...] but 'less than 5% for sure.'" [0] Marco Ament (thread OP) and John Gruber (Daring Fireball) are proponents of keyboards that take more effort to use, Gruber's favorite keyboard being the Apple Extended Keyboard II. [1][2]

Some aficionados' opinions about keyboards reach heights usually reserved for out-of-production American muscle-car transmissions. [3] Reading the tenor of some descriptions of the action of these old-timey keyboards, e.g.

  > tank but with a more metallic, punchy feel, and an audible note to its
  > astoundingly loud typing sound, [3]

one can practically feel the adoration of these self-identified keyboard nerds for a particular type of vintage keyboard.

I personally prefer subtlety and finesse when I interaction with peripheral devices, so I welcome the move toward shallower key travel.

YMMV

  [0] https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life
  [1] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/04/16/my-favorite-keyboard
  [2] https://www.flickr.com/photos/gruber/sets/72157604797968156/
  [3] http://www.penmachine.com/2008/04/keyboard-nerdery-apple-extended

EDIT: spelling, punctuation, capitalization, modify adverbial phrase, add adjective.

Could be whether you learned to type on a typewriter or IBM model M keyboard versus something considerably more recent.

It's a great keyboard! Except for the reliability. Even small bits of dust or other dirt can easily prevent a key from working, and if you're not able to clean it from the outside, you're SOL and need a $400 keyboard replacement because individual keys cannot be removed without breaking them (unlike previous generations).

They can be removed, but with the hooks and clamps you need to be careful and know the right technique.

They’re glued and can’t be placed back if taken. There’s no hooks or clamps, I think you’re thinking of the older keyboards.

I know this firsthand as I’ve removed one key. It’s now lose on the keyboard but mostly works anyway. Still, I have no love for this keyboard, 4-5 keys are semi stuck and have been for some time.

Ooops, I meant the keycaps.

> I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches)

Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches. I don't blame you for not noticing, but it does demonstrate that Apple can make scissor switches that appeal to butterfly switch fans.

In the article Marco suggests that Apple replace the problematic butterfly switch keyboard on the MacBook Pro with the keyboard from the Magic Keyboard. Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you?

> Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches.

"similar switches" was a bad phrase to use in my original comment

> I don't blame you for not noticing

I did notice.

In fact, I hesitated to buy the current Magic Keyboard, hoping that they'd refresh it with the exact feel of the laptops. The key travel is about halfway between the old wireless keyboard and the new MacBook Pros. Better, but not perfect.

> Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you?

I greatly prefer the butterfly switches, yet acknowledge that the Magic Keyboard is an improvement over the old wireless keyboard.

Do you find the Touchbar actually useful, or are you just indifferent / don't really use it?

I think the Touchbar could potentially be useful, but besides being cool and myself really liking sliders, I don't get practical use out of it, at least maybe not to warrant $400 for some people.

I have a $job-provided MBP with the touchbar, and I find it actively evil. I am _constantly_ resting my fingers in the general vicinity of the top row, which triggers F11-type behavior, volume changes, esc-key hits, etc. It is a _damnably_ sensitive gimmick, pressure-sensitivity would improve it, but in general its a solution looking for a problem. In its current incarnation, I do not like it at all.

Where do you rest your hands to be able to trigger it? When I rest my hands I can't even reach that far with my fingers, much less press something by mistake.

edit: personally I rest my palm on my desk when I am using the touchpad, and rest my palms on each side of the touchpad when I am using the keyboard.

I’m constantly brushing mine by accident, not sure exactly how. I think it would be improved immensely by just being very slightly harder to trigger, either with pressure or dwell time.

When it was announced, there was a lot of backlash, but I thought I'd keep an open yet skeptical mind. Fast forward, I hear mostly indifferent or negative things.

I am very curious to see what Apple does with it going forward. Can they admit it was a bust and move past it? Will they insist it is the amazing innovation they advertised and keep pushing it? Will they get rid of it but spin it in such a way that it was an amazing feature that they've now innovated past?

Disclaimer: I'm generally an Apple fan since getting the first iPhone a decade ago. However I'm struggling to find compelling reasons to upgrade in their latest couple rounds of product releases. Partly, I'm sure, is that getting older I'm not as enamored with having the absolute latest toys to play with.

I personally think if they can lower the price they can justify it and nobody will really care anymore. People only really care because of two reasons:

1) It costs $400 more.

2) It steals their ESC key.

Both of these issues can be solved in due time. I think the hate against the Touchbar itself is completely unwarranted and all that is needed is changes.

Everything new is something to get used to.

Given the complaints about the Touch bar, and also about some of the specs, maybe they're better off ditching it and throwing in some more ram? Who knows

The ESC key is the only thing my coworkers with this laptop use the bar for.

I removed all those behaviors from the touch bar after I accidentally triggered Siri for the thousandth time. Doing that means the touch bar is black most of the time but has made the keyboard easier to live with.

Which is an issue. Disabling a $400 gimmick so that your $3000 computer is “easier to live with”.

The sad part is, I completely agree. I purchased a 15” MBP in May and I finally gave up a couple weeks ago. My wife now uses it to play the Sims, while I switched back to my Dell XPS. She doesn’t seem to mind the touch bar, so maybe it’s how I rest my hands. She hates the keyboard too, though.

Glad to hear you are happy with your purchase!

What I have noticed with the MacBook Pro 2016 and beyond is that they are way more polarising than previous generations. Sure, there were issues with the older Retina models, but nothing nearly as controversial as the keyboard, touch bar and ports on the latest models. I can understand that not everyone liked the old keyboard either, but I can't recall large numbers of people hating it to such degree as to call it a show stopper for purchasing a new portable Mac.

Re: #1 Agreed, my MacBook 12” keyboard is my favorite so far. My wife’s, however, feels like crap. Same year, only difference is color.

Yeah I enjoy butterfly switches so much that I'd be genuinely upset if Apple gave in and changed back.

You’ve also been lucky. Everyone is getting sticky and dead keys on these. I had “B” stick and double press, eventually it stopped after a few more weeks of use, but you can feel a key here and there being a little stubborn. It’s way more fragile than older keyboards.

That's really wierd because I'm told that I smack my keyboard, and I've never had an issue with the keys breaking or becoming dead/sticky. I guess I'm really lucky, but I'm fine with that.

Either way, the butterfly keyboard shouldn't be blamed for a technical failure. The keyboard itself when it's working is perfectly fine to use. Apple justs needs to perfect it until they get it right.

It isn't that the keys break due to you hitting them, it is that if there is even a miniscule piece of dust that gets into the keyboard it makes the key simply stop working entirely and the probability of breaking the key trying to replace or fix it is very high.

I’ve had this happen too. But I wouldn’t want to go back to the previous gen keyboard.

Also, it's happening so often to customers that there is a 3 week waiting period for keyboard replacements at Apple Stores, and sometimes the replacement keyboards are breaking even before Apple can install them:

https://twitter.com/stuartkhall/status/924889375011258369

https://twitter.com/stuartkhall/status/929578083123736578