Fixing the MacBook Pro | Hacker News Reader

Fixing the MacBook Pro

marco.org

191 pointsryanashcraft127 comments

I got the last mac book pro at work, coming from a 2015 model I use at home.

Pro :

- it is lighter. I don't really find it is a very relevant pro, the previous one is already a light device so this isn't really relevant but it would not be fair to do not list it.

- touch id is very convenient. It has one huge caveat : it is very capricious. For example each time the mbp crashes, fingerprints are automatically deleted. I guess it is a security measure, but it makes it a pain to register my fingers again since the machine is not that stable.

Meh :

- the touchpad is extremely large, I am not sure why. I had no problem with the old one. I sometimes tap on the pad by mistake but that does not happen often.

Cons :

-Touchbar : I can't wrap my mind around it. It is just bad. This is such a gimmick, and a badly implemented one. I can't count the number of times I mistyped on this band. Accessing a feature almost always take more time than with the old regular keyboard. On top of that, I really miss the tactility of a simple button. I am used to type without looking at the keyboard and with buttons you can't press it is far from comfortable to do so.

I am on the verge of just using a dedicated keyboard and touchpad just to do not have to use this touchbar.

It makes me very uncomfortable, but the high end machine my company bought for me is objectively less suited to my use case than the 2 years old one I have at home.

It is the first time that even after a couple of months, I can't get used to a new machine and long to go back to the last one.

Another minor cons is that just came to mind is that there is no longer an indicator on the keyboard's bezel giving you the position of the ports.

It was pretty useful but Apple has discarded them..

That's too bad, even something really discrete like a line or even a point would be great.

Lastly : magsafe was great. I am all for a future where we use USB-c but is it impossible to have a magnetic adapter on the powerplug cable ?

  > Another minor cons is that just came to mind is that there is no longer
  > an indicator on the keyboard's bezel giving you the position of the
  > ports.

On the 2016 MacBook Pro 15 the top of the speaker grill lines up with the top edge of the Touch Bar which lines up with the top edge of the plugs on Apple USB C cables.

To my eyes, this "line" seems characteristic of Apple engineering.

The bottom usb port does not really line up with anything though.

That's a very minor grievance though, especially compared to touchbar.

I agree with most of this. I switched from a 13" MBP of the previous design to a 15" 2016 MBP. I do appreciate the size and weight reduction - the new one barely feels larger or heavier than my previous 13" MBP. I like the feel of the keyboard, but the keys are very unreliable - I've had a couple of keys fail to register or start to register twice for every key press (which I was luckily able to fix on my own with some gas duster and by tapping the key fast for a while.) I haven't found any use for the TouchBar.

> For example each time the mbp crashes, fingerprints are automatically deleted.

What kind of crash are you referring to? I've had my 2016 MBP for about a year now, with a couple of freezes/black screens, but I haven't had to re-register my fingerprints at all. I assume you're not just referring to the mandatory password entry after reboot?

I also have the issue of some keys repeating letters. Also, had to replace several keycaps, the tiny clamps are too weak and get loose, so the keycaps start to wobble and pop out.

I have the 2017 MBP 15" and had my laptop crash several times (htop bug). My fingerprints have never been deleted. Have you verified that it is indeed a security measure? If it is not a security measure, it might be something worth taking the it in to get more scrutiny. Best of luck with the laptop.

Hard to say, I updated the OS recently and I have way less crashes.

Maybe it only erases prints recorded since the last restart ? I googled a bit when it happened and it was explained as a security feature.

I've been using a Macbook 2016 for a year but i have never had the fingerprints deleted. That sounds super annoying.

I think they should show some courage and make a Pro quality laptop again - one that doesn’t require dongles. Make it thicker, maybe even make it black. Developers don’t want the thinnest, we want the best.

It’s probably never gonna happen because they are a mobile device company now and that is where the money is.

I think that's the problem, developers have different tastes. If I wanted a monster, I would get a Lenovo P71 with a Xeon at almost 8 pounds, or something like it. I like the 17 MBP for the most part, except the arrow keys and the size of the track pad (too big, I keep palming it). I like it better than the 13 I had before it.

This. Make it upgradable. RAM and multiple M.2 please.

And make it shut the hell up, or let me offload compute to something that has big fans.

> or let me offload compute to something that has big fans.

This one puzzles me. Back when I used a MacBook the fact that it was mostly silent was one of the biggest advantages.

Also, somewhat honestly: I don’t see any reason why Mac users can't offload to AWS, Azure or Google Cloud?

You're both in agreement - bigger fans are quieter fans

What kind of MacBook did you use, and did you plug it in to an external display?

My 2013 15" MacBook Pro is extremely loud when plugged in to one or more external displays. Seems to be related to the fact that its fans are either off, or at 100%. Or at least have a very late, aggressive curve. It's also very loud when the CPU is constantly pegged at 20% or more, which is basically a given when running Xcode.

I can offload some things to the cloud, but I can't offload my UI and local apps, which are the things that cause the really loud noise.

When it's under a light load, it's very quiet - moreso than most non-Apple machines I've used. But under heavy load, a number of other machines seem to be much better at expelling their heat without sounding like a jet engine.

The reason I mention making it thicker was because I was under the impression that “too thin” was the reason the number and size of ports was compromised. It doesn’t need to be a monster, the previous generation MBP wasn’t.

I've owned a Macbook Pro 2015. I've also owned about 3 different Cherry Blue MX mechanical keyboards.

I pre-ordered the new Macbook Pro 2016 when it originally came out. Here's my take after using it for more than 6-7? months (no clue, time goes by):

1) I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard. There is absolutely no issues with it for me and it's my ideal keyboard. I honestly do not understand people who say the accuracy is bad on it - perfectly fine for me. Use it for long enough and you'll get used to it. The only thing it is guilty of is being different.

2) I enjoy the Touchbar and TouchID, it genuinely feels nice to use it. ESC key being on the touch bar is something you get used to, but understandably if I was a huge user of VIM it would probably make me extremely upset. Thankfully I'm not and it works fine for me. I genuinely do not notice it anymore.

3) I ran out of USB-C ports on my laptop (4 total). I have pretty much all of them in use, so I now need to resort to USB-C <-> USB A hubs. For some reason, USB-C <-> USB-C hubs don't exist, so that honestly sucks considering I completely switched to USB-C plugs before I ran out.

4) Touchpad size is much better than 2015 MBP. After using this so much I could never go back to a smaller touchpad, and using my old 2015 MBP just honestly feels bad. It might be due to my sensitivity? I have no clue why people say their hands hit the touchpad since I have never had that issue in my entire time owning it.

5) CPU and memory is great. I can run multiple virtual machines in Parallels no issue. I develop games and constantly test them in the background. I really see absolutely zero drawback from the 2015 MBP, and even though on a spec-sheet the hardware /looks/ worse, in my experience it performs much better.

Take what you will from my experiences.

Re: #1 Agreed, my MacBook 12” keyboard is my favorite so far. My wife’s, however, feels like crap. Same year, only difference is color.

Yeah I enjoy butterfly switches so much that I'd be genuinely upset if Apple gave in and changed back.

You’ve also been lucky. Everyone is getting sticky and dead keys on these. I had “B” stick and double press, eventually it stopped after a few more weeks of use, but you can feel a key here and there being a little stubborn. It’s way more fragile than older keyboards.

That's really wierd because I'm told that I smack my keyboard, and I've never had an issue with the keys breaking or becoming dead/sticky. I guess I'm really lucky, but I'm fine with that.

Either way, the butterfly keyboard shouldn't be blamed for a technical failure. The keyboard itself when it's working is perfectly fine to use. Apple justs needs to perfect it until they get it right.

It isn't that the keys break due to you hitting them, it is that if there is even a miniscule piece of dust that gets into the keyboard it makes the key simply stop working entirely and the probability of breaking the key trying to replace or fix it is very high.

I’ve had this happen too. But I wouldn’t want to go back to the previous gen keyboard.

Also, it's happening so often to customers that there is a 3 week waiting period for keyboard replacements at Apple Stores, and sometimes the replacement keyboards are breaking even before Apple can install them:

https://twitter.com/stuartkhall/status/924889375011258369

https://twitter.com/stuartkhall/status/929578083123736578

Glad to hear you are happy with your purchase!

What I have noticed with the MacBook Pro 2016 and beyond is that they are way more polarising than previous generations. Sure, there were issues with the older Retina models, but nothing nearly as controversial as the keyboard, touch bar and ports on the latest models. I can understand that not everyone liked the old keyboard either, but I can't recall large numbers of people hating it to such degree as to call it a show stopper for purchasing a new portable Mac.

> I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard

Agree.

So much so, that I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches) to replace the previous-generation Apple Wireless Keyboard.

The new MacBook Pro keyboard is the best I've ever used. My fingers feel like they're flying over the keys. And I've owned all sorts of mechanical keyboards, ThinkPads, and odd devices like the DataHand.

I really don't understand all the hate for the new keyboard. Or USB-C. Or the Touch Bar.

I'm here to third this assessment. The feel of the butterfly switch is so much better for long bouts of coding/typing and, in my particular case, improved accuracy.

I think the issue is that the scissors switch encourages typing using the tips of the fingers (deeper key travel) whereas the butterfly keys encourage using the pads of the fingers which reduces exertion and fatigue.

My understanding is that the failure rate for the butterfly keys is "significant [...] but 'less than 5% for sure.'" [0] Marco Ament (thread OP) and John Gruber (Daring Fireball) are proponents of keyboards that take more effort to use, Gruber's favorite keyboard being the Apple Extended Keyboard II. [1][2]

Some aficionados' opinions about keyboards reach heights usually reserved for out-of-production American muscle-car transmissions. [3] Reading the tenor of some descriptions of the action of these old-timey keyboards, e.g.

  > tank but with a more metallic, punchy feel, and an audible note to its
  > astoundingly loud typing sound, [3]

one can practically feel the adoration of these self-identified keyboard nerds for a particular type of vintage keyboard.

I personally prefer subtlety and finesse when I interaction with peripheral devices, so I welcome the move toward shallower key travel.

YMMV

  [0] https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life
  [1] https://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/04/16/my-favorite-keyboard
  [2] https://www.flickr.com/photos/gruber/sets/72157604797968156/
  [3] http://www.penmachine.com/2008/04/keyboard-nerdery-apple-extended

EDIT: spelling, punctuation, capitalization, modify adverbial phrase, add adjective.

Could be whether you learned to type on a typewriter or IBM model M keyboard versus something considerably more recent.

It's a great keyboard! Except for the reliability. Even small bits of dust or other dirt can easily prevent a key from working, and if you're not able to clean it from the outside, you're SOL and need a $400 keyboard replacement because individual keys cannot be removed without breaking them (unlike previous generations).

They can be removed, but with the hooks and clamps you need to be careful and know the right technique.

They’re glued and can’t be placed back if taken. There’s no hooks or clamps, I think you’re thinking of the older keyboards.

I know this firsthand as I’ve removed one key. It’s now lose on the keyboard but mostly works anyway. Still, I have no love for this keyboard, 4-5 keys are semi stuck and have been for some time.

Ooops, I meant the keycaps.

> I ordered the new Magic Keyboard for desktop use (which uses similar switches)

Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches. I don't blame you for not noticing, but it does demonstrate that Apple can make scissor switches that appeal to butterfly switch fans.

In the article Marco suggests that Apple replace the problematic butterfly switch keyboard on the MacBook Pro with the keyboard from the Magic Keyboard. Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you?

> Actually, the Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches.

"similar switches" was a bad phrase to use in my original comment

> I don't blame you for not noticing

I did notice.

In fact, I hesitated to buy the current Magic Keyboard, hoping that they'd refresh it with the exact feel of the laptops. The key travel is about halfway between the old wireless keyboard and the new MacBook Pros. Better, but not perfect.

> Since you like the Magic Keyboard, I assume this would be fine with you?

I greatly prefer the butterfly switches, yet acknowledge that the Magic Keyboard is an improvement over the old wireless keyboard.

Do you find the Touchbar actually useful, or are you just indifferent / don't really use it?

I think the Touchbar could potentially be useful, but besides being cool and myself really liking sliders, I don't get practical use out of it, at least maybe not to warrant $400 for some people.

I have a $job-provided MBP with the touchbar, and I find it actively evil. I am _constantly_ resting my fingers in the general vicinity of the top row, which triggers F11-type behavior, volume changes, esc-key hits, etc. It is a _damnably_ sensitive gimmick, pressure-sensitivity would improve it, but in general its a solution looking for a problem. In its current incarnation, I do not like it at all.

Where do you rest your hands to be able to trigger it? When I rest my hands I can't even reach that far with my fingers, much less press something by mistake.

edit: personally I rest my palm on my desk when I am using the touchpad, and rest my palms on each side of the touchpad when I am using the keyboard.

I’m constantly brushing mine by accident, not sure exactly how. I think it would be improved immensely by just being very slightly harder to trigger, either with pressure or dwell time.

When it was announced, there was a lot of backlash, but I thought I'd keep an open yet skeptical mind. Fast forward, I hear mostly indifferent or negative things.

I am very curious to see what Apple does with it going forward. Can they admit it was a bust and move past it? Will they insist it is the amazing innovation they advertised and keep pushing it? Will they get rid of it but spin it in such a way that it was an amazing feature that they've now innovated past?

Disclaimer: I'm generally an Apple fan since getting the first iPhone a decade ago. However I'm struggling to find compelling reasons to upgrade in their latest couple rounds of product releases. Partly, I'm sure, is that getting older I'm not as enamored with having the absolute latest toys to play with.

I personally think if they can lower the price they can justify it and nobody will really care anymore. People only really care because of two reasons:

1) It costs $400 more.

2) It steals their ESC key.

Both of these issues can be solved in due time. I think the hate against the Touchbar itself is completely unwarranted and all that is needed is changes.

Everything new is something to get used to.

Given the complaints about the Touch bar, and also about some of the specs, maybe they're better off ditching it and throwing in some more ram? Who knows

The ESC key is the only thing my coworkers with this laptop use the bar for.

I removed all those behaviors from the touch bar after I accidentally triggered Siri for the thousandth time. Doing that means the touch bar is black most of the time but has made the keyboard easier to live with.

Which is an issue. Disabling a $400 gimmick so that your $3000 computer is “easier to live with”.

The sad part is, I completely agree. I purchased a 15” MBP in May and I finally gave up a couple weeks ago. My wife now uses it to play the Sims, while I switched back to my Dell XPS. She doesn’t seem to mind the touch bar, so maybe it’s how I rest my hands. She hates the keyboard too, though.

Got a 2015 Macbook Pro. As of today, the E, R, and T keys have all stopped working. Apple wants $500 for a logic board replacement.

It was fine when it was just the R key. Sort of. I set up bash scripts to copy-paste "r" to my clipboard, and just pressed command-V instead of "r". But then the T key went out.

The other day, I was using my MacBook with an external keyboard sitting on top, and then the whole thing shut off. The keyboard had been pressing the power button.

Also ran across someone with a similar story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15701331 MBP rendered unusable by faulty X key. Apple wanted $400, he paid, then the G key went out. They wanted another $400.

It is sad to hear your story, and I hope you have great luck in finding a good solution that does not empty your wallet.

I really wish that the 5 year "reklamasjon" (roughly translated to claims) period we have in Norway for things that are supposed to last more than two years, caught on globally. It can sort of be explained as a warranty mandated by law, which means we can usually ignore the usual warranties from the vendor unless they give better terms or last longer than 5 years. I have had computer equipment that broke down after four and a half years, that I got either replaced or repaired for free because we have these laws.

I think one of the largest benefits of having such a system world wide, would be less waste. Producers would have to make more durable products that lasted longer, not laptops, cellphones etc. that are basically treated as consumables with only a few years of life expectancy.

Australia has a similar arrangement. The wording in the Consumer Law is deliberately vague - something like it must last "a reasonable time", which means a $2000 laptop should last longer than a $300 one. It's not a fixed 5 years.

My Samsung TV I bought in 2012 died this year under normal use, and they replaced it with a new model. The "warranty" was only 12 month. I'm 100% this law is partly responsible for the "Australia tax" but it also means manufacturers can't take shortcuts.

(Apple tried to claim the "reasonable time" an iPhone should last is 12 months, which didn't stand up in court given you could buy them on 2 year contracts)

It’s important that this gets brought up every time Australians complain about high prices. When it comes to MacBooks, it is essentially mandated AppleCare.

Can I benefit from it if im an EU citizen buying @ Norway ?

> MBP rendered unusable by faulty X key. Apple wanted $400, he paid, then the G key went out. They wanted another $400.

Act today and buy the entire alphabet for just $8000. That's a $2400 savings!

Lots of other laptops manage to use $20 or $50 keyboard assemblies. They don't break quite as often, either.

> It was fine when it was just the R key. Sort of. I set up bash scripts to copy-paste "r" to my clipboard, and just pressed command-V instead of "r". But then the T key went out.

I admire your adaptability; I certainly wouldn't be able to call it "sort of fine" if I had use a shortcut just to type a letter.

* Keys break. A lot. Probably 1/4th of my friends with this machine have broken keys. Never happened on the old MBPs. (As I type this I'm using a mechanical Razer keyboard plugged into a dongle plugged into a 2016 MBP with a broken G key.)

* Trackpad is too big. What was the point, honestly? Nobody said, "My use case is I want a trackpad that's impossible not to bump when I type."

* MagSafe was great, bring it back. Every Apple product from now until the end of time should use a MagSafe power connector.

* TouchBar sucks. End of story. I miss the ESC key. I've literally never been like, "Oh gosh, I'm glad I have a TouchBar to change the volume... what a great feature!" It' just inflates production cost without adding value.

* Machines lack power... CPU and RAM. Old MBPs felt like they were amazing machines that would stand up over time. 16 GB RAM has been the cap for how many years now? Like a decade? Yeah...

* USB-C... other than dongles, I don't know a single accessory that uses a USB-C. Everything is Thunderbolt or USB-3. So... yeah let's have at least one USB-3 plug. I've got a USB and HDMI adapter that I use every day. Anyway nothing is built using a USB-C... I get pushing for new tech, but it seems more just like a way to add $250 in dongle sales to every new laptop sold.

* They are more expensive than the old ones. =(

* Office, Steam, other things... still don't run as well on Mac as they do on PC. If Apple isn't for Gamers, it has to be for people who do work? Or... look, who are the "Pro" lines for these days?

I would add, “Apple, you have our permission to add a quarter inch of thickness and a bit of weight to create a better computer”. The compromises are becoming ridiculous.

I'm on a late 2013 15" MBP and I am dreading the day when I need to replace this joy of a machine.

I like the idea of the touch bar, but I don't actually want it for keys. I think it'd be handy as a ticker for notifications, macros, etc, but not common keys.

Having a bar for macros / shortcut keys for Illustrator (etc) would be extremely useful for designers, and I don't doubt that there are hundreds of other applications for other industries. Sort of like those LED keyboards that were kicking around a few years back.

The requirement for dongles is just silly. I actually purchased this late-2013 MBP refurbished specifically because I didn't like the new GPU and read some other complaints about the current systems of the day. Having an SD slot, HDMI, 2x USB, etc is excellent and can easily handle most of my needs when I'm on-the-go. At home I have my laptop on a VESA mounted tray with a second monitor.

All in all, there isn't a lot that Apple needs to improve with the MBP -- they just need to dial it back a few generations and retool the touchbar so its not mandatory.

Lastly, bring back magsafe! Maybe there are some people who hated it, but I've never had any issues with it. There have been a few times where the cable has been kicked (often at a coffee shop by someone else.) Its a fantastic design, even if the magnets could be the tiniest bit stronger.

quick edit: I hope things don't go the way of using the camera for quick unlocking. I always keep my cameras covered, even if makes me look like I'm paranoid. Using touch ID on the touch bar would definitely be ideal.

The touch bar is optional. In my opinion, it is great. The only issue is that it consumes more of your battery.

I agree that the new machine is lacking in terms of Battery and Memory (only 16GB!). I'm waiting for the next release.

The models without the touchbar have fewer USB ports. That’s why it’s questionably optional. My work setup uses two external monitors and wired Ethernet. So I’d like three ports and no touch bar. If I want enough ports for my setup, I have to take the touch bar too. I don’t like having to make that kind of choice.

I didn't know that. Any good reasons for that?

I think they used fewer or smaller usb controllers in the cheaper model. So it only has bandwidth to drive two ports. And I suspect it was intentional to encourage high end users to take the one with the touch bar, as a way of driving adoption.

Get a dock

The Touch Bar is mandatory on the 15” model, and while there is a 13” without it, it has two USB ports instead of four, and is using a lower power class CPU. They advertised it more as a replacement to the MacBook Air in the original keynote.

It’s just super annoying that Apple labels these laptops as “pro” when it seems their focus is thinness/lightness. I don’t begrudge this on the consumer models, but the new MBP’s are so philosophically different from my older machine (expandable, lots of ports, etc.)

Flexibility doesn't necessarily mean portability. Always having to remember to take the right dongle is wasted mental effort. I'd rather lug around a slightly heavier device.

I'm writing to you on a 6.5lb laptop with FireWire, VGA, HDMI, DisplayPort, two 3.5mm audio jacks, SD 5 USB-A and 3 USB-C. And in all honesty, I sort of miss having a 9 pin serial port.

I had a terrible experience during the first days with a MBP 13”, which was kinda offset by being amazed by the touchbar. That faded quickly though.

Finding ESC without any physical affordance is a pain in the ass. Normal things like cancelling a dialog become a hurdle. I haven’t used the middle section of the touchbar in weeks - nothing really useful there. I hate the way the volume slider works. A few days back almost hurt my ears when accidentally maxed out the volume while swiping off a bit of dust from the metal right above it.

I’ve had the standard dead key issue but it fixed itself. The keyboard actually feels nice, but a key gets a bit sticky every other day.

What made my experience better is fully embracing USB-C. I have a hub connected to a 4K monitor, headphones and power, so I can sit down and plug in a single cable that does everything - this feels magical. [To be fair, sometimes two cables since the hub can’t keep up with charging under heavy load.]

I would add: the trackpad is way too big. I accidentally touch it all the time when I am typing, which causes my cursor to move.

Yes, that's my big issue too. I bought and returned a 12" MB because I kept accidentally activating the trackpad.

Which is a shame. I thought the keyboard was fine and lots of other things are great.

I agree that the cable-management flaps on the power bricks need to come back. They were an excellent design and the current bricks could clearly accommodate them.

I've heard several Apple 'Geniuses' say that if you wrap the cables around these flaps then the cable will eventually get damaged. Customers routinely reply: "why do you put the flaps there if using them will damage the cables?". Perhaps Apple has removed them because they end up damaging the cables. I've also noticed that the USB-C charge cable seems to be thicker/more rigid than the magsafe 2 charge cable.

I think people would wrap tightly, and put too much pressure on the point where the cable exited the charger when they wrapped around the flaps, which would inevitably cause a failure. It isn't much better now, but at least the cable can be replaced instead of the whole unit.

The cables are known to break too easily, but I'd rather want them to solve that by having proper strain relief on the cable than remove the flaps on the charger.

Redesigning the charger? Might as well do it properly. Have the thin cable plug in to an L projection, so it naturally wraps right around the brick body. Put an L projection on the other side, rotationally symmetric, for the wall cable plug. Now they both wrap with large radius curves, and can be replaced independently of the charger itself.

You'd think that a company that theoretically charges higher prices for superior design would do something like that.

The USB-C PD charger bricks just have a single USB-C slot. You can use the provided cable or get your own longer/shorter/braided version. There are also third party USB adapters that mimic magsafe functionality, albeit not as amazing as proper "Apple designed" magsafe of the past.

Given the new USB-C everything paradigm and the available options I don't think ditching these plastic clips is that huge of a fumble for them-- Although I would like to see proper L shaped USB plug options on BOTH ends of the cable from Apple, Nintendo (Switch seriously needs aux charging port in back or on top) and any other third party that wants my money.

It's planned obsolescence, simple as that. There's no other reason to not have a detachable cable on the old magsafe chargers when the new one has it. I think apple feel the pulse of the industry and choose what they can get away with, wwhat (my macbook w-key double pressing again) people will tolerate, until the competition catches up. Then they change the game a bit and produce the next "best iphone/imac/macbook" ever.

Apple's support page corroborates this.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201600

As someone who currently has those flaps, I look forward to no longer having them when I get a new MBP. I never use them anyway, and wouldn't want to (it'd be bad for the cables to wrap them so tightly).

I have a 2016 MacBook Pro, and I really dislike it. Part of that is the dongles, and the dongles plugged into the dongles.

I also dislike the keyboard, but I rarely use it as an actual laptop so it's fine I guess

I dislike mine so much as well. The battery life is so disappointing and the Touch Bar makes everything worst. I now need twice the number of taps to increase the volume or switch to the next song. For me this computer is a disaster.

The new style keyboards from Apple are terrible.

I have a 2017 MBP and their BT external keyboard (provided by work) and it is noisy, it's like having a mechanical keyboard...clack....clack....clack...

Its just so difficult to type silently, unlike their previous keyboards.

I've got a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) with 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 + 16GB + 1TB SSD. It was an upgrade from an earlier 2011 model which started displaying power issues, overheating and quite literally falling apart. It's fine power wise.

The problems are:

(1) Screen came with a bad pixel which Apple was like "oh just leave it with us 1-2 weeks and we can swap that out for you" ... totally unreasonable after dropping USD$5K, because I need my system daily.

(2) Screen has an imprint of the edge of the keys on it because it is designed to be too thin/bendy, and when in a full bag receives some squash pressure.

(3) Touching the lower right part of the trackpad began to reset the computer, sometimes, a couple of years ago. When it happens it happens over and over. Apple wanted $new-computer-money to fix it. I now use a Wacom tablet and stylus in most cases.

(4) Some crap driver I installed (Huawei mobile data dongle for India) broke my OS in some fundamental way that was impossible to fix, and I had to re-install everything which was a nightmare waste of a weekend.

To be fair I do use it daily and it is sort of surviving, but the cost is far too high. Of course "I am never buying another Mac!" ... except that I have been looking at alternatives, and none of them really appeal, except in the desktop range, which is a big leap backward in mobility. Perhaps I will just buy a cheap PC laptop with Linux or a dumb terminal at work to log in to a desktop at my house and be done with it.

I have a retina late 2013, and I just sent it in for a battery replacement. They swapped my drive out to a new CPU, and put my old screen on the new CPU's body. I think the cost was like 200$, and took 2 days (delivered to my door).

When your machine gets battery problems, take it in ASAP, and get it repaired. I probably got 3-4 more years of life out of this machine with that repair.

Apple replaces the entire top case when you go for retina battery replacement. So, you get a new top case with new keyboard + touch pad + new battery. I don't think they replace CPU. There were times Apple gave out a new MBP when they couldn't get new top cases.

According to Geekbench there is only about a 50% performance gain with Intel i7 CPUs since MacBook Pro Retinas from 2012, am I the only one that is surprised about this - Moore's Law and all? https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=macbook+pro

The last year was a decent jump. 4700 vs 4100 single core geekbench

I have Late 2013 MBP Retina i7-4850HQ CPU @ 2.30GHz. The score I see is: 4120 14264. For the latest MBP Retina i7-7820HQ @ 2.90HZ and its score is: 4644 15802.

I see just 10% gain, and I don't see any reason to upgrade unless the logic board fails on my 3.5 years old laptop.

Nothing is has been more frustrating than constantly accidentally touching the TouchBar while my hands are resting or while typing. I had no idea previously how many interfaces handle the Esc key.

I remapped caps lock to be esc, and things work fine.

The touch bar is just now a volume and brightness slider control!

The problem is unfortunately not being able to remove Esc from the TouchBar, and so I accidentally keep pressing it

I would very much like to see Gruber's take on it. Because while Marco is a prominent software developer, I dont think he understand Apple "that" much.

Take SD Card as Example. To me they are going to the way of CD/DVD. I am not a professional photographer, so it is a little hard for me to understand what specific workflow that SD Card is mandatory. We have 802.11ax and 802.11ay, First being a much improved 802.11ac that should finally mean WiFi doesn't suck ( as much ) and the latter brings 60Ghz direct line of sight transfer and 100s of Gbps. While we are unlikely to see those speed, it is no argument that we are capable of doing 5-10 Gbps wireless transfer now, and even better in the future. So why the need for an SD Card? Your Camera should wirelessly connect to your Computer.

Then there is the Keyboard, I loved the Magic Keyboard. But even then it is not perfect. So not only should Apple NOT try to put scissors back to MBP, they should make something that is better then Magic Keyboard, give the sense of depth, using more or less the height of Butterfly, while being super reliable. The problem with only 5% of MBP have keyboard issues is that the previous MBP had 1%, that is 5X more! They should aim high and have a failure rate of less then 0.5%.

Again it is the same with trackpad. Let as avoid all the discussion of why such a large trackpad. But if they are going to make it stay there, may be an hands on keyboard sensor, we want palm rejection to be 99.999% accurate! Not 98 or 99%.

The list goes on. But Apple is known to be the master of iteration. Or more like Steve Jobs's Apple was known for it. So the next MBP is going to be critical.

Mac is still a 25M unit/ year business. 5th Largest PC Vendor by Unit, likely higher on revenue, possibly the number 1 in profits since Apple make 10x more profits then other PC vendor. ( Doesn't mean Apple is making a lot, it is just other PC vendor are cut throat competition going down to 5% Gross Profit ) So Mac still matters, and will continue to matter for the coming 10 years, despite the Post PC era, and going in a full circle, It is Apple's best chance to take over some PC Market.

Surprises me that a 2015 MBP is still passable for him cpu-wise.

I briefly replaced my 2014 MBP with a 2017 iMac, citing the 16GB ram ceiling as my primary issue. I ordered the iMac from Apple with 8GB of ram and ordered an additional 16GB from OWC b/c it was way cheaper.

The iMac arrived over two weeks before the OWC ram arrived, so I had 2 weeks using the 8GB iMac in it's ram-starved state. In short: I never once noticed the new iMac with just 8GB to be memory-starved. Never.

I don't really know what this is owing to — I assume Kaby Lake has a lot to do with it. I feel like if they could just update the 2015 MBP to the new chips, we'd be all set again for many years. That's my wish anyway.

For clarity: I returned the iMac after the 15 day trial period b/c I still use a laptop a lot of the time and didn't want to be managing two computers. I think I could have used this iMac with just 8GB of ram indefinitely. It was literally a non-issue for two full weeks of normal, daily working use.

That's fine for workloads which don't need more than 8gb of ram simultaneously. I've had workflows using scanning software (poorly optimized, but industry standard scanning software) that will gladly use more than 16 gigs of ram if available. Sometimes you just need a bigger bucket.

Until this past summer I was doing all of my (design heavy) workload on a 2013 15-inch retina MBP, without any problems. I would still be using it, except that the display died on me and it made more sense to buy a new laptop than replace it. I was irritated at the time, because I'd wanted to wait another year in the hopes that they eliminated the touch-bar from the top-end lineup, but I've been really happy with the Kaby Lake MBP overall. It's quieter (except for the keystrokes), cooler, has a great display, etc. The things that bother me most about it are not the USB-C only thing, but the absence of a traditional power/eject keyboard button, and the relatively high occurrence of phantom keystrokes that result from brushing the touchbar with stray fingers. Otherwise it's a wonderful machine and I'm very pleased with it.

I have a 15” Mid 2015 MBP as my personal machine and a latest model 15” MBP w/touchbar as my work machine, and while the latter is a bit faster I don’t feel much of a difference between the two in my day to day. The projects I work on are small/moderate sized, though, and compiling them doesn’t take too long. It’d probably be a different story if I were working on WebKit or Chrome or some other monstrously huge project.

There’s huge performance gap between desktops and laptops though. If the trend wasn’t so heavily inclined towards laptops as corporate machines I’d prefer a high end iMac to be sitting on my desk at work instead of an MBP.

How / why are desktops so much better? Wondering what was it that made that new iMac I bought so much better than this 2015 MBP with just half the ram. Any ideas?

Interesting then that a mid 2015 mbp has similar cpu benchmark scores to an iPhone 8...

https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929790 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929982

Did the iMac have an SSD?

It did yeah. My MBP does too.

If you buy an iPhone today does it come with a USB C or USB A cable can I plug my new phone into my top of the range laptop?

It comes with a lightning to USB-A cable.

That’s crazy to me! I’ll stick with my iPhone 7 and 2015 MBP

True. I really wish Apple let you walk into an Apple Store and trade a Lightning-A cable for a Type-C cable.

The decision to go to USB-C was the last straw for me. It just means they can sell overpriced dongles when I have a significant amount invested in Thunderbolt and HDMI. I went to Asus, and back to Windows. With the Subsystem for Linux and Docker support, I couldn't be happier.

Yes, the keyboard is so disappointing. The plastic of the keys is so thin and harsh it feels so cheap. Yes, I really miss the inverted T arrow keys - my right hand can't orientate itself any more. Yes, touch pad was a mistake - a single tap should change the volume!

This isn’t as discoverable as it should be, but you can put your finger on the volume “key” and slide without pressing the button, waiting for slider, then sliding. I think I actually like adjusting volume on the Touch bar better than the old way.

True, but that's not really a 'single tap'. More like 'tap then wait until the slider appears then drag finger just the right distance'

Though not so straightforward to find, the 2015 model is still available for purchase:

https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/

We aren't apple's target market anymore, and these are not "pro" laptops. They're "pro" iPads.

The target market is upper-middle class/upper class people who want a really attractive, designer laptop.

Developers have got to be such a tiny niche of Apple's customer base now that they don't care anymore. Go into an apple store sometime. Try to guess how many of the people there buying macbook "pros" are software developers.

Really couldn't disagree more. So many software engineers at tier-1 tech companies use apple machines (I'd put the percentage at around 50% depending on tech stack.)

Walk into any engineering class at a university and you'll likely see the same ratio, perhaps even further skewed towards macs.

Disclaimer: I own a mac and a pc

No, I'm not saying that developers don't use macs (they do, except for people who have a stack that is explicitly tied to windows).

I'm saying that apple doesn't care about those people anymore, because they've found a new, bigger market segment.

Even if 100% of those people are using a Mac (and they aren't... I help teach CS at a University in California and 75% of the people in my intro class this year have a Windows laptop: I counted, as I was that shocked at how different this is than five years ago when everyone had a Mac), you first have to show that there are actually a lot of those people, and there simply aren't... "engineers at tier-1 tech companies" plus students in "any engineering class at a university" is a tiny tiny tiny percentage of the market Apple is optimizing for.

Actually, it's 50%. Count a little closer next time.

I used the tbMBP for a little while earlier this year, and OP is totally right about the keyboard and touch bar. The keyboard is harder and more awkward to type on than its predecessors and the Touch Bar isn’t very useful (though it might be when it comes with Taptic Engine)

I own the 2017 Macbook Pro 13 inch.

Here is a list of my gripes: 1. I would like the ability to move the siri button over a bit so I don't accidentally touch it. (I should probably just remap this to something else.)

2. Some issues connecting to my hdmi monitor is slightly unreliable.

Here are the things I like about it. 1. TouchId is awesome. I use it more than the Apple Watch unlock feature.

2. I have never had an issue with missing the esc key. I love the touch bar because it allows me to dismiss alerts without moving my fingers so much.

3. I bought some usb-c adaptors for a ergonomic keyboard and tracball mouse. Logitech came out with a new trackball that is bluetooth so I will probably switch to that.

4. Touchpad is amazing I have never had an issue with palm rejection.

5. I only feel a slowdown when I have an insane amount of tabs open. When that occurs I'm probably saving too much information in that tab and it should be closed.

Am I happy with my purchase? Yes.

I love the color. The butterfly switches with less travel allows me to type faster. The screen is gorgeous.

I prefer the butterfly switches to the previous chick-let.

You can move the siri button in keyboard settings -> customize control strip :)

If you go all USB-C, the new models are fine. I think the primary argument is that Touch Bar sucks and I think it's overall useless to people who are used to a keyboard being a keyboard that's it... Which is probably all pro users for the most part.

> If you go all USB-C, the new models are fine

What if I don't want to go all USB-C, especially since USB-C is a disaster? https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c A "Pro" computer should serve my needs, not the other way around. I'm sick of Apple breaking things for no damn reason and then acting like I'm the problem for not just going along with it.

> I think the primary argument is that Touch Bar sucks

That's not the primary argument. Most people who dislike this machine think the touch bar is at least inoffensive, if not particularly useful. The primary arguments are:

1. If you get so much as a speck of dust in the keyboard, it bricks the machine and requires a >$500 repair, with no guarantees that it won't happen again the very next day.

2. The lack of useful ports means you have to carry dongles (at $80 a pop) everywhere.

3. They made a perfectly thin-enough and light-enough machine thinner and lighter, giving it worse battery life for no good reason.

4. They made a perfectly big-enough trackpad bigger, increasing the spurious input rate for no good reason.

related -- they would do well to add an escape key to the iPad pro hardware keyboard as well.

re:ports

It seems clear that we are heading to a USB-C world but we are not there yet. There are too many existing devices to which we need connections to just abandon them. When you reduce both the type and number of ports, you make the device less versatile. The availability of USB-C is still in transition and this generation of mackbook should reflect that. include at least one USB-A port and one display-port or hdmi port. Adding USB-C ports does move things forward but dropping the others too soon just impedes the function of these laptops.

Kill the touchbar. Give me a real escape key

2016 MacBook Pro works like a charm for me. It's genuinely more mobile, smaller, lighter. Low-travel keys are faster for typing for me and don't ever mark the screen like some older models. Touch Bar is sometime more useful when using full screen mode with everything else hidden.

If you're accustomed to trackpad scrolling on the mac using a native editor (TextMate) you are spoiled for life. Everything else feels wrong.

i essentially want Apple to give me the capabilities of a thinkpad P51 in the fit and finish Of a MacBook Pro. I realize they are somewhat beholden to Intel on this as so many laptops in this class are stuck with 16GB barrier.

* A choice of Apple ARM CPU(s) or Intel

* Ditch the keyboard and expand the Touch Bar to become a touchpad: an entire customizable keyboard / input pad

Interesting. The virtual click of an apple touchpad would provide some tactical feedback to recognize "clicking" on individual keys on a flat surface. The next problem to solve is how to simulate the tactile separation between keys when you're typing, but not when you're mousing around.

ie Star Trek style.

I disagree with a couple points here.

= More ports

No. This should be a strict no. Not including Flash on the iPhone has pushed the community to adapt. If Apple wasn't blunt, we'll be still stack with these "plugins". Not that I hate flash but it isn't the right way to do it even if it is more performant right now.

There is no reason to have multiple different confusing ports. And different kind of cables. Let's stop this and have the whole industry work on a single type of Port.

= Back away from the Touch Bar

That's highly subjective. Especially that you can opt-out by choosing the model without the Touch Bar.

I personally like the Touch bar.

You keep your world with "one port to rule them all". I need to interface with a wide variety of old and new devices, and I don't see that changing any time soon. As old gear of mine breaks, I will upgrade it, but I won't upgrade just for the sake of moving to USB C.

> Magic keyboard

Are keyboards a big problem on macbooks? I've never heard of anybody having any problems with the keys.

> Great first-party USB-C hubs

Or just include enough ports on the laptop itself. In my entire life I've never needed to use a hub for anything.

> More ports

Couldn't agree more. SD card slot, 3x USB-A, 2x USB-C, Displayport, headphone port, Ethernet port, sim card slot.

> Back away from the Touch Bar

Yeah the touch bar is kind of useless and fucks up the already limited keyboard. Touch screens are the way to go for the occasional touch usage.

> Nicer charger

Apple's never been great at charging. Iphones have always charged slower than every other phone on the market. Even their wired charging is slower than my 2 year old Samsung's wireless charging. So yeah, much improvement needed.

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