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Comment by chrisseaton | Hacker News Reader

I think the author is being deliberately uncharitable. I think what these co-living spaces are proposing is more similar to an officers' mess, if people here have experienced that, than roommates, in that it's sort of like a private permanent hotel with private rooms, dining areas, kitchens, libraries, and staff waiting on you. As a young person it's a really fantastic way to live, very efficient, and it fosters community.

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These have existed before in the USA and been zoned out of existence. You may have heard of SRO hotels, single room occupancy? Otherwise known as flophouses. Basically middle class people look at how poor people live, go “I would never want to live like that.” and make it illegal. Also see tiny houses as a solution to homelessness. The problem is zoning.

The problem is zoning.

The problem is democracy.

The problem is people.

>The problem is people. Bingo. Many, many problems boil down to people making decisions in what they believe to be their own best interest, which ends up either A) harming others (i.e., theft and other crimes) or B) not actually being in their own best interest (i.e., strategic voting).

Plenty of people have done "communal" living before "co-living" was a thing. These sorts of arrangements were commonly associated with hippies or punks, but plenty of "normal" people do it, too.

You are correct, however, that the author is being deliberately uncharitable, which, I believe, Silicon Valley calls "snark."

That's why I brought up the analogy to the officers' mess, which is a very middle class and establishment thing, and shows that communal living is not just a hippy or punk thing.

I do think it has some merit; the comparison to student housing is made, but IIRC there's nothing like that once you've graduated - you're almost forced to get a house of your own, rental or bought. I can imagine for a lot of people it's not actually an improvement, especially if you can't afford a house right after you've finished school.

I know where I live, in NL, there's a few scenarios. One, some people just remain students for ten years until their early 30's, living in student houses like this for that whole time. At least this used to be the case until the government cracked down on scholarships. I don't know if this type appears in the US, I can imagine with university being a lot more expensive year over year it's not that bad.

Another thing, and this goes for me, is that if you're out of school, especially in the city area, it's very hard to find a house. There's social rental which is the affordable rental apartments, but there's a 10+ year waiting list for that - that is, your parents would have had to sign you up for it when you were still a kid. If that's even possible. Then there's the free market, which is more like student houses and such. I've had to do the latter for... I think 8 years, at the end of my education and the first seven or so years of my career until I earned enough to be able to buy a house. (that + other factors, mind you; I think I could've bought a cheap apartment much earlier if I wanted to. Wasn't sure about buying yet 5-6 years ago).

erm, anyway. I think there's some merit to this, give the benefits of shared living but add the comforts of adulthood and working for a living (maintained shared spaces, privacy, etc) and there might be something there, especially in areas where housing is expensive and/or space is limited and/or people don't live in the same spot for more than two years.

It also used to be a very common living arrangement for single people. Boarding houses were very common until they were essentially outlawed through zoning regulations. It's a very logical way of living for people who don't have the option of sharing accommodations with family members.

Student dorms. While we're at it, let's rethink the whole social mess we're in with nuclear families. Vastly inefficient, totally anti-social. We need more communities.

Yes, a bit like a very high end student dorm (like an Oxford or Cambridge college).

Do you mean single family homes?

Nuclear families seem to be empirically less poverty-prone than other family arrangements. And there seem to be higher order effects to the success of entire communities when there are relatively fewer nuclear families in the neighborhood.

> And there seem to be higher order effects to the success of entire communities when there are relatively fewer nuclear families in the neighborhood.

Do you mean as opposed to singles or to extended families? In either case, I'd be interested in a source.

Well, there are an infinite number of lifestyles to be lived. I doubt there are good numbers on dormitory-style lifestyles, for instance. But current numbers show that married households fare well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#P...

https://www.ssa.gov/retirementpolicy/fact-sheets/marital-sta...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4240051/

Married households fare well because the tax system and plenty of other institutions favor married households. It doesn't have to the the case.

Marriage is mostly a "capital" redistribution system and with strong public services (ie shared services) there is much less need to focus on the nuclear family as a protection (sharing of ressources) network.

Ex. When a few years back pension laws changed in Japan and housewives got the right to get a pension separately from their husband, the rate of divorce boomed.

There is nothing in the nuclear family that makes in a natural fit to what humans are as social animals.

>I think what these co-living spaces are proposing is more similar to an officers' mess,

This is how a huge portion of Chinese youth lives.

Those places are called ant colonies in urban slang. Your experience there can range from good to horrid if you rent in such places.

Landlords of such places can be anybody from random uncle Liao, to proper property companies.

The company in the article "the Collective" has almost certainly copied the approach of bigger Chinese property companies.

> like a private permanent hotel with private rooms

now thats a good idea. Given the societal trends, it's something i 'd invest in.

But that's called serviced apartments, not a new concept. Just serviced studios in that case.

No a mess is not really like serviced apartments. It's more like one big communal house. Most of the areas except bedrooms and bathrooms are communal and you would normally eat together with staff waiting on. It isn't a new idea but most techies probably have not experienced that kind of lifestyle, so will be new to them.

I'd love to live in a living space like a mess if I wasn't married.

I've always thought that a mess for politicians would be a good solution to the parliamentary expenses problems in the UK as well. Could build a mess for the politicians in Westminster where they can all stay. Could be nicely appointed but efficient as they're all together.

True, though modern luxury apartment blocks increasingly have communal areas (swimming pool, gym, cinema, lounge).

They are probably trying to bring the "gated community" concept to the apartment block level.

Gated communities are a very bad sign; outside the US, they are usually found in places where income is very unequal, crime is high, taxes low and public services of very bad quality or inexistent.

It doesn't have to be like this. In fact, a more balanced society improves the lifestyle of everyone, including those who make more (and end up paying more taxes).

Before I'm asked "citation needed", try and imagine which societies I am thinking of.

Might even become the collective noun - "a mess of politicians" ;-)

Serviced apartments typically aren't "permanent", though, they're rented by the night like a hotel rather than on a longer-term basis, so they cost a lot more, to compensate for the high vacancy rate.

There are also permanent serviced apartments. An example that comes to my mind in the UK are the apartments in the Shard, which are serviced by the Shangri La but I believe were sold, not rented.

There is also Ascott in Asia, which are typically collected and comanaged with 5 star hotels. I had a friend who lived in something like this full time when I was living in Beijing.

FYI: The company from whom they copy: https://www.youplus.cc/

I rented in youplus for 1 month. It was decent, but for a little more you can already rent a room, (which however will not be anywhere near as fancy in Shenzhen)

Seriously. I've seen "co-living" plenty outside the SV context. It's simply the best word to describe the idea.

I do agree that the SV take on the concept has a nasty VC-fund-ishness to it. Co-living environments should be democratic and cooperative, not run like a startup.

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