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Comment by snapetom | Hacker News Reader

If this is Amazon's solution to missing packages, it's the wrong one.

I've never had an issue with Amazon delivery until they used their own drivers. I now frequently have my packages never arrive (I have cameras on my porch. Not being stolen) and four times in the last six months have received a delivery for someone else. It isn't like a package for my next door neighbor, either. They're packages to addresses up to three miles away.

If Amazon wants to reduce missing packages, they need to hire drivers who actually give a shit or go back to using USPS/FedEx/UPS.

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Had some issues with an amazon delivery and talked to the driver about fixing it for next time. They shrugged and said amazon pays like crap and the driver turn over is high. So high that I'd likely not get the same driver for my next delivery.

Does seem like a bad way to run a business.

Seems strange for amazon to propose entering into a house instead of just selling a locked box that you and deliveries could use.

> Does seem like a bad way to run a business.

This is how businesses maximize profits nowadays. Nearly all new jobs since the recession have been unstable contract jobs, and nearly 40% of workers nowadays don't have stable jobs[1]. This is why even though unemployment is incredibly low, inflation has been flat: workers lack the leverage required to experience wage gains.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/elainepofeldt/2015/05/25/shocke...

As in all labor intensive industries that require no particular skill. Turnover is not an issue, it's a consequence.

You can't significantly improve the job and the work conditions, it is what it is. You can't pay more, that'd impact costs too significantly.

The consequence is high turnover and you can't fix the root cause. Lucky you, there is an endless supply of fresh blood that can and are willing to do the job so it's a viable business model.

You seem to forget there were and are companies like fedex and ups that deliver things just fine and don't have these issues. It might have something to do with how they train and pay their employees.

Let's not idealize the situation at other delivery companies. Delivering is not a dream job.

It'd be interesting to see how much business is B2B and repeated addresses for UPS/Fedex vs Amazon.

Amazon is likely to be distinct. High amount of one off consumers. Varying routes every day. Customers being away during delivery. Exactly what ruins a delivery company.

> Delivering is not a dream job.

Maybe not now, but it used to be. You say that the job and work conditions can't be improved, but the fact that they were better before proves that your statement is false.

What the hell are you talking about? Did you ever do delivery work? It's simply not great.

I'll reckon, any job was better 50 years ago when rent was a fraction of a salary and you could provide for a family on a single income.

On a single blue-collar income, no less. My father, a lineman for Ma Bell, purchased a house and 5 acres of land for $100,000 (in today's funds), and is still receiving retirement funds. He was forced to retire at 50 - a dream many of us today will never realize.

>Let's not idealize the situation at other deliveries company. Delivering is not a dream job.

It's not your dream job. My last cab driver immigrated 16 years ago and has been driving 5pm-5am shift for the last 7 years. Full time delivery is a dream in comparison. I don't think he could send his kids to college on Uber.

It's healthy compared to desk work, doesn't require any extensive training, and relatively low stress.

Be cautious when predicting the behavior of others.

Low stress?

Did you ever have to deliver to someone who is away? to an address that doesn't exist? to an address that exists but is located at the wrong place? what when it's inaccessible or has no bell?

That's what you get to deal with every single day, you never know where you gonna be or what's gonna go wrong the next hour. Meanwhile, your delivery time is accounted and customers can complain back about you for anything.

A number of people have already attacked one of your fundamental assumptions about low skilled labor. I think one way to say it is you're making the assumption that what you call "low skilled labor" is in fact "zero skill labor." I think you underestimate the level of skill required to deliver goods efficiently and quickly, and yes, the cost that is involved in it. (to be fair, you seem to be saying that I am overestimating that skill in your first sentence.)

Also, "one off consumers. Varying routes every day." Well, delivery company employees will have precisely fewer of those because their job is to deliver things, seems like the reason not to trust Amazon drivers over Fedex.

This applies to almost all of the gig economy.

It's a shame for workers that delivery driving is now a gig. Historically, it was a stable, good paying career, something to work towards within USPS.

But hey, at least shareholders are getting a better value.

edit: It seems like any comment not intensely pro-capitalistic ends up downvoted. You folks need to realize that while capitalism is a fantastic method of maximizing wealth generation, it's not perfect.

Our lower-middle class is shrinking while our lower class is growing because of the loss of jobs like these. The fact that I'm getting downvoted for pointing this out is a bit surprising, given the generally levelheaded comment section this site usually provides.

Amazon PE ratio is insanely high. Even shareholders aren’t getting better value.

Amazon is abusing drivers, fulfillment workers, and AWS engineers (so I’ve heard) because they can get away with it. It’s a shame really.

I would argue that they are. Amazon has low profits because they blow all of them into capital expansion, not because they aren't making them.

The humans are only there until they figure out robots.

Then they can rejoin the poorly paying gig economy and hopefully get paid enough to have things delivered to them by their replacements.

And said box would have to be bolted down and made of very strong materials. Very expensive.

And letting a delivery person into your house is a very bad idea, even if they don't make it past the threshold. They see that 100" TV and then their buddies break into your house 2 weeks later.

Good luck getting Police to look into it.

Amazon is trying to cut losses from stolen packages, and get you to pay for it. Via buying one of their cameras. Unless you have Cameras covering every inch of your property. And they don't allow other brands of Cameras.

Just having packages hidden in a box that is always out there rather than in the open will have an effect. A lock that slows them down by several minutes would also help. A lot of these type of crimes are largely crimes of opportunity.

> Seems strange for amazon to propose entering into a house instead of just selling a locked box that you and deliveries could use.

I strongly suspect that streamlining deliveries is a pleasant side effect rather than the intended goal of this.

I guess USPS/FedEx/UPS drivers also have a lot of accumulated experience and 'tribal' knowledge that Amazon drivers lack.

Agree with this. Amazon drivers will place a package propped on center of door clearly visible from street, where a UPS/FedEx driver will tend to place it in a discreet manner.

Amazon also is still lacking the web access to manage the delivery that I get with UPS and FedEx.

The difference is that Amazon treats their drivers like garbage http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-amazon-drivers-2016121...

UPS and Fedex pay drivers enough to care.

UPS drivers have their own union, which protects their jobs and benefits, providing an incentive to be efficient and provide quality results.

Amazon delivery drivers have no incentive, thus terrible service.

Disclaimer: when I have to order through Amazon, I have them flag my account to use traditional delivery methods because Amazon delivery is trash.

What I'm getting from this is that Amazon hires drivers that don't care, underpays them and can't make sure they don't misdeliver or drop or steal packages. And their solution to this conundrum is for me to give the same set of drivers that can't be trusted with delivering a package the access to my home. What are they smoking there at Amazon?

> If this is Amazon's solution to missing packages, it's the wrong one.

The comments when Amazon Key was announced[1] were also giving good reasons why that's not a great package delivery solution.

But if you watch the video of the Amazon Key annoucement[2], they mention multiple other scenarios: "maybe let in your dog walker, a friend, or maybe to let in a team of cleaning ninjas"

I don't think it's too far-fetched to see the 'friend' here being actually your airbnb guest. Many airbnb homes already use a rudimentary lockbox with code, if the guest can now instead set up something on their amazon account and know they'll be able to get in (at least the initial check-in, and have a key waiting on the coffee table), it could make the experience smoother for the guests, and the host as well.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15549479

[2] https://youtu.be/wn7DBdaUNLA?t=30s

>But if you watch the video of the Amazon Key annoucement[2], they mention multiple other scenarios: "maybe let in your dog walker, a friend, or maybe to let in a team of cleaning ninjas"

For which solutions from all the major lock companies (and others) already exist. I can give people who need access to my house custom codes on my Schlage lock. It is an internet-connected thing--although it doesn't really need to be that. And I have found punching in my code is easier than dealing with the app on my phone.

I'd be shocked if they weren't already thinking of ways to tie this into other service offerings they can be a middle-man marketplace for.

Yep. We've had packages go missing, and I've seen amazon packages just left on the sidewalk in the SF Mission. Granted there were problems before, but their own delivery service is not great.

> I now frequently have my packages never arrive (I have cameras on my porch. Not being stolen) and four times in the last six months have received a delivery for someone else.

It does actually solve the issues you gave as examples.

The driver is at the wrong house, scans the box but the door doesn't open. If Amazon doesn't detect the door being opened and the driver coming inside and delivering the package then they definitively know the package wasn't delivered.

This gives them an automatic way to evaluate drivers. When you complain that you did receive a package they can check the footage and resolve your customer service issue immediately instead of having to contact the driver.

I'm really surprised that we're missing one really simple solution:

Better, real-time truck-tracking information for user expecting a delivery.

When you request an Uber or Lyft, you see where the car is and exactly when it will be at your door. FedEx/UPS/Amazon trucks certainly are being driven with intelligent GPS systems which instruct a certain predictable route... share this data with the user so they know when you're be at the door - and possibly, give them the ability to input preferred time through an app ("I won't get home until 2p.m., can you be an hour or two late")

Because routing is not a simple problem. Uber/Lyft pull it off because the car is in the "neighborhood" but deliveries need to have fixed hours in unpredictable conditions like traffic, people etc. Add to preferred time to the mix and the whole thing becomes even more untenable.

Tinfoil hat time - I think this is Amazon's solution to become as pervasive as they can possibly be. You can buy just about anything that's legal from Amazon, you can stream entertainment, you can automate your house, and anything that they don't provide themselves they let third parties do it in AWS.

I recently had an amazon delivery person submit that they had delivered my package even though they hadn’t. Prompting me to go through the stolen package process, only to find the package on my doorstep a couple days later. Definitely don’t want that dude in my apartment.

If you don't mind my asking, what is that process?

I too had an Amazon next-day (Amazon Logistics) delivery erroneously marked as delivered (last Saturday). When I contacted Amazon customer support, they requested that I file a police report over the missing package. And then even when I did, they refused to do anything.

What's the magic word I have to say to get them to care?

With services like ontrac and their inhouse delivery they are intentionally scraping the bottom of the barrel for small-van delivery operating costs (salary, benefits, recruiting/hiring practices and training, vehicles).

Agreed. In my area, 2 day shipping usually uses either UPS or USPS. Same day shipping uses their drivers. I've given up expecting it same day.

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