Amazon Key is a new service that lets couriers unlock your front door
theverge.com
theverge.com
...in fact, it's so much a better solution that I can't imagine Amazon hadn't considered it. They could easily sell Amazon Qubbies with the same pitch they're making here. I can only conclude that the real goal is to get you to install those cameras.
Side-anecdote/thought: I used to live in a mixed-use building with 20 units, or so. One of the businesses downstairs was a DVD rental place (this was only a couple years ago; they're still there!), and they volunteered to accept packages for the upstairs residents. Little informal services like that can add up to something that can't be replicated by all the technology in the world, and I worry a bit about the consequences of seeking to obsolesce them.
Having used them a bunch while working at Amazon they're super nice, but not very practical for large/heavy packages because I had to get them back home. Getting one at or near my home would obviously make me order everything I could to it. It would also remove my biggest complaint about AMZL deliveries not being able to get into my freaking mailroom.
I appreciate they are trying to be more strict in their deliveries than in the past and want to try to lose fewer packages than they used to, but the tools at their disposal to handle this (versus UPS, FedEx, and USPS) are woefully under-developed. The web form to respond to delivery failures doesn't have enough options (and is very suburb focused at that), and at this point I would almost prefer a pickup location option and just pickup things from some equivalent of a UPS Store or Post Office.
Maybe they could put Amazon Lockers in Whole Foods or something?
(I guess to end somewhat on topic: the mailroom issue is precisely why Amazon Key wouldn't work for me. It seems like a far more suburban solution to the problem.)
The last one that was delayed was delayed for 2 days. I contacted chat and apparently it was because they couldn't get into the mailroom and were waiting on delivery instructions.
I don't know from whom, because I was never contacted.
I suspect that the ultimate goal is to grant home access to their home-services pros (ie home cleaners) while you are away.
This constant lazy conspiracy theorizing every time a large company does anything is really grating.
i don't think this is lazy conspiracy... many amazon pages in the U.S. heavily promote their home services offerings so it is clearly an important initiative for them. furthermore, "amazon key" does solve a really big problem with home services: service pros typically work during the business day, but some (perhams most) of the best customers are at work during that time.
(pretty much because anyone good at doing the cleaning can just cut out the middleman)
What about the failure mode when the courier doesn't follow your parents instructions and leaves the package on the porch?
Now you have the code to the lockbox of the key to the house sitting on the porch where anyone who approaches can gain access to the house.
Personally I'd use the term "locker" to refer to a box placed outside in which to store packages.
I agree that it seem a better solution to the one scenario you're mentioning: delivering packages.
But if you watch the video in the article [1], they describe other scenarios: "maybe let in your dog walker, a friend, or maybe to let in a team of cleaning ninjas"
I don't think it's too far-fetched to see the 'friend' here being actually your airbnb guest. Many airbnb homes already use a rudimentary lockbox with code, if the guest can now instead set up something on their amazon account and know they'll be able to get in (at least the initial check-in, and have a key waiting on the coffee table), it could make the experience smoother for the guests, and the host as well.
Also how do you include the code? Address line 2? 3? Memo? I don't always see these.
I think it's just address line 2. There's a note on the porch telling them to look for the code. It doesn't always work, but it doesn't really need to. At least not where they live.
Technically as far as USPS is concerned, there are only 3 lines in an address: name, address, and city/state/zip. Address line 2/3 are non-standard and are disregarded, and you may put whatever delivery instructions in there you want.
If you have an address like "Room 321" that should go as part of Address Line 1.
However, mail is delivered by human beings and generally speaking you can get a surprising amount of mail delivered with non-standard addresses. It used to be quite common to give addresses in the form of "Red House on Easy Street at the top of the hill" and this will still usually make it through. See: "Falsehood: An address will be comprised of road names".
https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-a...
Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8907301
Address line 2/3 are non-standard
All of my future projects will have 5 line shipping address forms.
They include the combination to unlock it in the delivery address
In fact, most will contort my address to something the USPS will bounce back to the shipper if the P.O. takes its rules to the letter ("#123" gets changed to "UNIT 123", which the USPS considers invalid).
I wonder if that would be sufficient grounds for an antitrust suit if it happens.
Not following, Amazon has an option for "include key code" in their orders
Or a night safe style sliding opening in to a large metal box or in to the house through a wall.
This way the delivery person doesn't need to know a pin etc.
Probably, but I wouldn't. The idea of giving a company full access to your locks is a bit wtf in my books.
My intuition is that granting consent for some action to one group of strangers does not grant consent to a different group of strangers, but I am not a lawyer.
Another, perhaps better example: a landlord typically has a set of keys and the right to access a tenant's apartment. In a commercial building, those keys could be held by any number of "strangers" on the maintenance staff. The police still need a warrant, they can't just ask the landlord for a set of keys. That's really not any different from having the "keys" held by Amazon staff members.
There are lots of instances where a person's expectation of privacy is low with respect to specific people/businesses but high with respect to the government, and that doesn't weaken their 4th amendment protections.
A point to bring up with regards to landlords is that both State law and contract law (your lease) enable them to enter the dwelling under very special circumstances, usually such as an immediate threat to life. They may also enter to do various tasks such as inspections but laws usually mandate notice that must be given and how. Here in Texas, it's a minimum of 24 hours written notice for the latter.
However, IIRC, if the delivery people (or landlord, in your second example) choose to report to law enforcement anything criminal that they see in your home _of their own free will_ and without any prior arrangement with police, that evidence would be admissible and could be used to obtain a warrant.
It's not that much different from past cases where Best Buy technicians found illegal material on computers brought in to them for servicing and reported it to police and resulted in successful prosecutions.
There are plenty of people that grant access to their homes to service providers like cleaning services, dog walkers, etc...
Legally, I don't think there's much new here.
I wonder if you could outfit the smart lock on a shed or secure package box and let them deliver to that?
It would also provide some security by obscurity for any packages we get; according to UPS, right now I've got three packages totaling about $500 of equipment sitting on my front porch in plain view to anyone going past the house. Thankfully the house sits nearly half an acre off the main road, with no sidewalk and in a semi-rural area. Still, Murphy's law dictates that today will be the first time I have a package stolen. I'll find out when I get home in a few hours, I guess.
(My regular UPS guy normally doesn't deliver to me until after 6pm, he knows my schedule and it lines up well with his driving route most of the time. I'm guessing this is a new driver, or else a really light day for my regular guy.)
My apartment and several in the area, have a concierge, and they’ll act as a “porch” and even deliver it to your door later in the day
Some apartments have mail rooms, some with automated entry based on if you have a package or not
It’s largely a solved problem
EDIT: @vidarh: I was unaware. Thank you! Going to look for one that is weatherproof and I can paint Amazon Locker yellow.
It’ll even be a convenient place to put letters and other small deliveries.
I guess since most mailmen are men and they will use it the most often, we can call it a malebox.
Some other anecdotes:
When my townhome was broken into, I learned that windows are way less secure than smart locks. If someone wants in your home, they're going to get in.
When my house caught on fire, I would have loved to have been able to let the first-responder in remotely as we were an hour away, the fire company was 20 mins, and seconds count.
1) good deadbolt mounted into thick wood with a big strike plate and a sheet of sheet metal attached to the entire length of the stud with 3” screws, so you can’t just kick in the door. They sell kits like this oh amazon for usually sub100$.
2) good deadbolt.
3) steel door, because a 15lb mallet will knock through pretty much anything else and, if you have a door not visible to neighbors (like a backyard doors) no one will even notice.
4) an alarm system, because if no one is coming, steps 1-3 are irrelevant. Time defeats all security measures.
5) thorny bushes under all windows, motion-sensing lights on the entire perimeter. This keeps no one out, but if your house looks like a pain in the ass to get into, someone else’s will get hit. Outrun your neighbor, not the lion.
6) and if you’ve got the cash to spend, hurricane-proof glass and window stops will make it very unlikely anyone is getting in through a window either.
7) and that’s all still just to make you less attractive than a neighbor, ‘cause if I can get into your yard, cutting away some siding with metal snips and knocking a hole in your sheetrock is trivial. Walls are more psychological than structural in most modern home construction.
Even that’s overkill. Even if someone sheathed their exterior walls in plywood, structural sheathing runs 5/16 - 1/2”, and seams are between studs. It’s for resisting shear stresses on the house and/or insulation. In terms of orthogonal force, it’s a far cry from requiring a saw to get in.
If they're going to get in that way, they're gunna work for it.
/at that point it would be easier for them to go thru the doors or windows (not even sure where you'd get hurricane glass in Arizona).
I’ve never seen it written up anywhere, though I’m sure someone has to have spilled beans on this topic at some point.
If you have specific security concerns relevant to your personal situation (eg, I live In an apartment with a balcony...) feel free to leave an email address or some other contact info and I’ll happily give you some quick tips. Most residences, unless you’re a high value target, need very similar security.
Though I did find a 16" version for $80.00 - I'm thinking a tool like this might come in handy for off-roading use.
Amazon could certainly be coerced into unlocking the door, but the FBI could also just use their boots to coerce the door into unlocking on its own.
This is an extremely worrisome statement. Is there any precedent for this type of coercion from the FBI to businesses who have access to a home? My justice-sense is tingling to think that the FBI could get into my home by coercing any party that I give access (hypothetical maids, pool guy, cat sitter, etc)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...
And, at the same time, package delivery is a PITA for many. For me, it's simple. They leave packages by the door and I've never had an issue but that's not true everywhere. I agree that some sort of lock box outside is probably preferable most of the time but this option doesn't seem out of the bounds of common sense.
Now if only they could pick up and return my laundry too (like some other companies offer)
Or deliver fresh food (like Ocado)
Since they have a key, maybe they could go ahead and get started cooking it for us too.
I'd like to see how Amazon manages the access. Can access be revoked manually? Can you generate your own access permissions to give to a friend? Is this access code a one-time code?
What if Amazon accept full liability for use of the lock though their system?
E.g. a courier taps to unlock the door, within 30 seconds, they must tap to lock the door or the local police will be called.
Many police forces charge each time they respond to a false alarm, and the cost generally goes up each time it happens. On top of that, an automated alarm signal (with no human confirmation) is pretty much considered the lowest priority call, and they may not even attend at all.
This is why most businesses have a private security company to respond to their alarms. They're generally significantly faster (and often have a guaranteed response time), and if a security guard shows up, sees a crime in progress and calls police, it's actually a very high priority call and will get immediate police response.
Driver rings the bell as they would usually, you remotely open the garage and ask them to drop the package there, and then remotely close it and lock it.
[1] https://ring.com
"It's safe, you can trust us! We'll never spy on you!" -- Jeff Bezos
https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/6/15924120/amazon-echo-look-...
Where I live almost every apartment has post boxes in the entrance area. Amazon drops the package in there and when I come home all I have to do is touch my key on the machine and it spits out my package. More advanced machines even send you emails when something got delivered.
As soon as one asks any question about "the states" the answers vary as widely as the people and areas. Some people are in apartments others are in the middle of nowhere.
UPS is great, they come right to my door. Packages are left on the porch, but there isn't anyone around to steal them.
FedEx is OK. They come to my door, but sometimes they are too busy/lazy to drive up my road and leave a bogus reason in the tracking system. I called them on one and they lady assured that my winter road wsn't passable. Nevermind my wife drove the kids to and from school and the FedEx guy has a 4x4 truck. I just wish if they were too busy they'd just call it what it is.
My mailbox is about a mile from my house. If USPS can stuff it in my oversized box they will, otherwise I have drive to the post office and pick it up. I've thought of putting in a package locker to share with the other neighbors on the road. A magical package machine like you described would be great at the end of the road - but there isn't any power there.
I prefer to have a few packages a year go missing (which Amazon will always replace) than always end up having to pick things up from the post office.
My normal USPS delivery person is kind enough to deliver packages to my back door which helps. AMZL/UPS/FedEx aren't so accommodating though.
As for neighbors, I have had things that required a signature left with a neighbor but it's very rare.
It's simply not an issue.
That said, many areas it is an issue and you'll have to deal with going into the office to pick it up - which completely negates the entire purpose of delivery to me.
I really don't understand folks who think this is a major issue or that leaving it with the neighbors is okay. I figure those folks typically only use on-line shopping to buy high value items relatively rarely, and are okay with the inconvenience.
When you are getting 90%+ of your daily life delivered, it becomes untenable. Please just leave it at the door.
Best defense to theft seems to be paying a lot of rent to live in a nice neighborhood. If it's an expensive package they'll usually require a signature which means I'll have it delivered to my workplace. I think Amazon probably doesn't want to rely on people having lots of money and accommodating employers.
Curious where do you live?
Apartments in downtown chicago have those but not outside downtown high rises .
Now picture a small century old house on a farm. There won't be any fancy boxes included.
Yah, except when they forget to re-lock your door. No thanks. If anything the door should auto-lock after the door is initially opened, but I still would not allow a delivery person access to my home. I'm sure most delivery persons are fine but I have not heard good things about the "courier services" Amazon has been using lately.
The only way deliveries will work for Amazon without the use of drones is if they open up the delivery service like AWS so that other businesses can use it. The reason I believe that is that deliveries need to be reliable. In order for them to be reliable you need to have regular drivers, ie, full-time employees who drive the same routes everyday. But Amazon doesn't deliver nearly enough packages for that line of business to make any sense whatsoever, so the solution would be to let others ship via Amazon deliveries at a lower cost and faster rate than UPS, FedEx, or USPS and perhaps subsidize the losses from other lines of business or raise the price of Prime to offset it.
Ultimately, Amazon is trying to compete with USPS in this space, not FedEx or UPS who want no part of last-mile deliveries.
No. If anything, people will hopefully realize this is probably the worst possible idea for privacy and security they could possibly do in their homes and tell amazon to piss off.
It only seems to be solving the problem of people stealing packages left outside, which I would rather just get re-shipped rather than have to deal with things stolen in my home.
1. For people without a security system, there are many simple ways to get into a house. If you are worried about people getting into your house, you might not want this, but you better also already have a nice security system (that is also not on a botnet).
2. At least for us, we generally recognize our UPS & USPS folk that deliver to our house.
3. This has a log and video of the drop off.
4. Who do you trust more? The people delivering your package or the random person driving around the neighborhood looking for packages that would imply you are not at home? (or just grabbing your package)
All that said, usually someone is at home when we get deliveries so I wouldn't buy it (also don't use Amazon much). But I don't see the reason for the backlash.
You also have to think about it from the delivery person's perspective. They won't really know if someone is away from home or just lazy. They could be opening the door to an assault or any manner of sexual harassment.
I wonder if they'll get resistance from drivers after they really think about the situation they could find themselves in. There's some security in knowing where your attacker lives, but not much if we're talking apartments.
Finally, will Amazon let you participate if you're in an apartment complex that already has lockboxes? Wouldn't that kill the delivery efficiency?
I would not recognize the Amazon subcontractors that visit my house/office. They are optimizing for least cost.
I've always felt bad for our UPS driver. He's a nice guy, very carefull with the boxes and almost always wraps them in plastic if it's going to rain. What should we get him for Christmas?
No dunkin, please. No bottles of wine, please. No home made cookies, please. No gift cards, please.
Cash is best and greatly appreciated.
Look at it this way... If everyone gives cash it is a nice stash. (only 43% tip me and i bust my butt)
Having 10 $5-15 dunkin cards (the most i had one year was $135 Dunkin. And i don't even like dunkin!) cant buy your spouse a nice christmas gift
How much? My range is $5-$400. $35 is a sound number
You are complaining that _only_ 43% of the people you deliver to tip you?
Why does a delivery person get tips? We are already paying for delivery...
Often, people who came up from the working class tip because they recall crappy pay, poor conditions etc when they started and appreciate my hard work with a tip. Others do not look at it that way and have your own thinking.
Im okay with either. I get it. Many of my patrons are unemployed due to retirement, living off interest and savings. They all tip. The young up-and-commers hardly tip. I think it's because the young had a different kind of life (ie easier) than the older retired generation.
Edit: if u are wondering.. Stay at home new mother (now "new" 2+ yrs ago) is absolute gold. Locked into ultimate convenience. 2-3 packages a day.
Wont trust Amazon Fresh. Tried once. Never again
This seems like a pretty big stumbling block, because asking people to give out an alarm code means that anyone who ever delivers to your place can get into your house later (unless you change the delivery code every week or something, which would be an ongoing hassle).
edit: I'm curious to know whether the people downvoting this comment have an alarm system and are happy to give out their alarm code, or if they're people who do not have alarm system and just think that, at a glance, this seems paranoid. I have an alarm system and have never given out the code to anyone. We've thought about giving it to some people whom we trust, but after we thought about it decided against.
If you're talking about a separate locker, not a bad idea but I'd assume that would be a lot more costly than replacing your lock and also would introduce all sorts of variability about size and where it would be placed.
That caveat in place, this might be a time to start from the bottom of the idea tree and try some of the more obvious limbs. If the problem this solves is absent deliveries, don't we just need bigger mailboxes or maybe even smart mailboxes?
Maybe they're thinking about this differently. Maybe it's about building trust, or just getting amazon smartstuff into homes for some other underpants plan. At face value, a cloud connected lock seems excessive.
My very first thought when I saw it was this was a solution to prove that a delivery took place in cases of package theft.
It seems like this is a play for pushing a smart home ecology around Alexa.
Probably similar reasons.
Then again, if you have a "guard dog" I'd recommend not letting someone in your house willingly knowing their face will be ripped off.
Court fees, you know.
Can I receive in-home delivery if I have a pet?
We do not recommend using in-home delivery if your pet can access the front door on delivery day.
I suppose some people might assume this means something silly like locking your cat in a broom closet of your one-room studio apartment, when many homes with dogs have a 'dog room' which is where the pet(s) stay when the owners are out of the house. Separating your pet from potential problems is a part of responsible pet ownership.
As the owner of a Newfoundland mix, I highly recommend it even without Amazon Key - not only does my dog appreciate having her own comfortable space in which she sleeps and to which she can retreat when there are too many people over, but it helps slightly contain the hopeless shedding and drool.
So, you only need a valid smart card, a working Amazon courier app and a balaclava to gain an unencumbered access to any of these homes?
I would never ever give a company access to my home. But maybe the next generation will not have a sense of privacy at all. But rather accept that mankind kind of grows together into one huge brain.
From my perspective, I wonder: Are there not enough places where Amazon can drop off packages? In my street, all kinds of shops will accept parcels for you.
Are new houses these days built with "drop off" areas that can be opened with an access code?
On the other hand, I wonder why the camera is a required part of this system.
1. To avoid the Amazon driver getting the blame for things done by your kids/partner/dog/whatever.
2. To keep the drivers honest.
What are the legal ramifications of this? We're not talking about access to data anymore, but potentially access to physical locations that would otherwise be outside of direct US jurisdiction.
It shouldn’t matter how ‘tough’ the door lock is either way. 4 digit ATM codes are easy to break too - we still expect them to provide a level of protection
To be fair, I feel the same about UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.
We tolerate this from a security company's cameras because that's their specific intention and the quality costs a monthly premium. From cutthroat retailers like Amazon, Walmart, etc., I have no expectation of ideal behavior.
Seriously though, this leads to so many questions.
- Why would anyone give a COMPANY access to their house? And why are people ok with random strangers roaming around their house, amongst all their valuables?
- What happens when the inevitably unpatched/out-of-support IoT lock gets jacked? Will people be forced to buy another $250 lock/camera set every year or two so they can keep receiving updates?
- Is theft/break-in insurance even valid if you've given someone else the proverbial keys to your house?
- What's your recourse if the delivery driver, or the dog walker swipes your Rolex?
I will never wrap my head around why people are so eager to spend lots of money to erode what little privacy they have left, in exchange for very very little.
And that is about as much thought that goes in to it.
I would not want to subject my neighbors to couriers asking to be buzzed in all the time.
That said, Amazon subcontractors routinely leave packages on my front stoop in the city in spite of the sign I have the asks for packages to be dropped over the side fence. A number have been taken -- and I wouldn't say it's not their fault packages get stolen in cities, but it's common sense leaving something on a stoop probably isn't a great idea.
UPS/Fedex seem to always drop over my fence.
No way I'd trust amazon to execute this well in the first few years.
I have used a few smart locks (until last year), and I must say the experience has not been anything close to good or amazing. Batteries are drained almost all the time, the lock can sometimes refuse to work.
For Amazon's Key service to work well, they need to have the locks work very reliably. The lock may be the Key's weakest link (not in terms of security, but in terms of reliability).
I've been using mine for a rental home, and it has paid for itself multiple times over the years by not having to replace keys, not having to call locksmiths for locked keys, and not having to change locks when tenants leave. Why more people aren't using smart locks is beyond me.
>Why more people aren't using smart locks is beyond me.
Because that's an entirely different use case. Do you have a smart lock on your own home?
Having had a Yale z-wave lock on my front door without issue for about 18 months and have had to change the batteries once.
Isn't it nice that they offer multiple options for multiple different people with multiple use cases?
Truly caveat emptor, unless the retailers themselves start carrying third-party insurance like tradesmen often do.
If this includes the ‘any guy with a minivan’ amazon flex drivers, then I’m out - I’ve heard way too many wacky stories about them to trust that enough for a lock.
i'd also like to see "don't deliver to my house option", meaning i'll come and pick it up from a depot the same day.
This almost exists in Portland, OR at least: many items have an option for "one-day pickup": https://smile.amazon.com/gp/campus?campusId=CAMPUS_POR
I say "almost" because it's not same-day: it's overnight.
No Thanks. I still preer 2 big locks and a big dog taking care of my home while I'm not there.
I'll pick it up at a delivery hub or keep coming back./
Of course I also find all these home voice assistants with always-on microphones unbelievably creepy.
No thanks.
Nope. Can’t ever see that going wrong.
Edit: oh well I'm setting up my own home camera facing the door and hopefully with opencv can tell if it's not me but that's a dream/future goal at this time.
The bot net is an interesting question Cloudflare I guess or use high load design like node, will see.
Edit: will add I want this because I will be living by myself and maintenance people have keys/can open my door if I'm not there. Probably a dumb concern but oh well I'm poor too.
I realize proof is in the pudding, bought the parts, started the repo will see
Overall though sounding like a luddite, not keen on strangers having a key into my home despite liability on their behalf. If there was a second door with regard to package dropoff that would be something.
There is nothing good that could come of this. Nothing even slightly at all.
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.airbnb.com
Anything based on abstracted trust is a disaster waiting to happen.