What is the main practical selling point of a model 3 over, say, a leaf? Longer range and that's it?
Good thing tesla has a lot of vertical investment in batteries. The market is very competitive.
Good thing tesla has a lot of vertical investment in batteries. The market is very competitive.
Much better value, larger size, better fuel economy, more conventional, more power, more range, and superchargers.
Cost per mile of range: $200 for the 2018 leaf, 132 for the Model 3. 147 hp vs 258 hp, 10" of extra length and 6" of extra width, over twice the range at less than half the capacity.
The Tesla is way superior to any other electric car on the road. The supercharger alone makes it the obvious buy for almost all consumers.
I think people getting fed up with the wait and switching to Bolts en-masse is a possible scenario. Imagine if Chevy made an ad targeting exactly that scenario....
(You can thank me later Chevy ad execs)
The model 3 is just under twenty one inches longer and 6.6 inches wider. The Bolt is nearly the size of a mini. It's not in the same purchase category for most consumers. It's also hastily and very poorly designed- the lead aero guy called it a nightmare. To me the most indicative thing about that is the weight. Despite being almost two feet shorter than the model 3, the bolt weighs more than the (short range) model 3. It's a shitty car, and non-electric reviewers have loathed it.
It's a perfectly good car, and most non-electric reviewers have said its only major fault is being "not sexy, not cool". Doug DeMuro, for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY
> the bolt weighs more than the (short range) model 3.
Sure, but only barely. The short-range Model 3 weighs 3,549lbs, and the Bolt weighs 3,563lbs. Your complaining about a difference of 14 pounds (less than 1%). The Bolt also delivers 18 extra driving miles of range, which explains a small portion of the weight difference.
> the lead aero guy called it a nightmare
Of course he did, they sacrificed aerodynamics for comfort. Some of the big complaints with Chevy's last electric car (Volt) was that it was too low to the ground and too short -- all great things for aerodynamics, but all things that actual humans complained about. So they made the Bolt a proper hatchback -- taller and sit higher -- to make it nicer for the occupants. Chevy, shockingly, listened to their customers and made some changes they requested.
The Bolt is perfectly fine car. Obviously it's not as sexy or luxurious as a Model 3. But the Bolt is not in any way a "shitty car" -- by most accounts, it's fast, comfortable and reliable. In fact, the Bolt is arguably the best electric car you can actually purchase in the US today -- and likely will be for the next year or so until Tesla solves their production struggles.
> We’re not fans of the front seats—the lack of support reminded us of a vinyl lawn chair. The gear selector moves in an unusual 7-shaped pattern, which makes it tricky to put the Bolt in Reverse.[1]
> Although it’s spacious and practical, the Bolt EV’s interior quality and appearance don’t befit its $30,000-plus price point. It looks and feels more as if it belongs in an economy car. It’s clear where General Motors spent its money: on the Bolt’s big battery.[2]
> Sure, but only barely. The short-range Model 3 weighs 3,549lbs, and the Bolt weighs 3,563lbs. Your complaining about a difference of 14 pounds (less than 1%). The Bolt also delivers 18 extra driving miles of range, which explains a small portion of the weight difference.
I'm complaining about it because the model 3 is a full 10% larger. If you only compare the footprint (which correlates more closely with mass) the model 3 is 23% bigger! That's a HUGE difference! It's not the weight itself that bothers me, it's just what it implies about the design work.
> Of course he did, they sacrificed aerodynamics for comfort. Some of the big complaints with Chevy's last electric car (Volt) was that it was too low to the ground and too short -- all great things for aerodynamics, but all things that actual humans complained about. So they made the Bolt a proper hatchback -- taller and sit higher -- to make it nicer for the occupants. Chevy, shockingly, listened to their customers and made some changes they requested.
That would be one thing, but the drag coefficient is .312. That's 30% worse than other EVs and stand-out bad among regular cars when it should be much better due to the reduced engine ventilation requirements and smoother underbody. The VW golf sits at .27[4], along with the mercedes b-class. There are tons of combustion hatchbacks at .27 or lower. The Bolt's aerodynamics are closer to the Kia Soul[5][6] than a Golf. The bottom line after all the excuses is still that the Bolt is way under-engineered.
> In fact, the Bolt is arguably the best electric car you can actually purchase in the US today -- and likely will be for the next year or so until Tesla solves their production struggles.
Yeah, I can agree with that. I get too incensed seeing it compared to a model 3, I guess. I also get unnecessarily annoyed when people buy a coupe civic just to save $1000. If I needed a new car in 2018, it's the car I'd buy (very unhappily).
[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/2017-chevrolet-bolt/2017-che...
[2] https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-...
[3] http://www.hybridcars.com/2017-chevy-bolt-ev-is-less-of-a-dr...
[4] https://drivemag.com/news/the-most-aerodynamic-cars-you-can-...
[5] https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/kia/soul/2017/oem/2017_ki...
Bolt: http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english...
Model 3: https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tesla-model-3-s...
Tesla should be concerned if GM expands their market by taking their Bolt technology and rapidly expanding into vehicle lines that appeal to other groups, such as a Bolt crossover or sexy Bolt hot hatch.
Personally the Bolt looks a bit lame to me, but I'd consider one that was a bit sportier and that looked about as good as a Golf GTI.
Or this thing: https://www.wired.com/story/crazy-cute-concept-cars-from-the...
Except that it mostly isn't on the road at all!
Cost per mile of range is a nice way of getting lower numbers for the Tesla, but it's more out of pocket.
The model 3 has a longer range, is faster, and is overall much sexier, but it costs for model 3 users to use those superchargers, and you can get a Leaf or Bolt today.
Tesla has to get them on the road before an accurate comparison can be made to Leafs and Bolts.
The 2017 Leaf has a range of 107 miles, for $287/mile. It's also 110 hp. Both the Bolt and the Leaf are crap cars. Tesla could raise the price on the model 3 by 10 grand and it would still be a better value.
Perhaps in parts of the USA but not necessarily in Europe. For example there is ONE supercharger station on the whole island of Ireland, at Ballacolla south-west of Dublin.
I've lived on the island for 40 years and have never even been to that part of it.
The supercharger isn't like a gas station, it's only meant for long trips. Ireland could probably do with one on the west coast too, but it still serves its purpose in Dublin. You wouldn't be able to drive all the way south to north in a Leaf or Bolt.
But yeah, long trips are much less common in Europe and you'd think Tesla would do worse (especially since even in America the model S is a relatively large sedan), but without checking the numbers AFAIK they do better. I would guess the price point puts it in the range of people who want big cars anyway. Probably it just fills a niche that has been very empty in Europe- wealthy climate-aware buyers with preferences for stylish mid-high level cars.
* 50-100% greater range * Better acceleration and handling (and RWD/AWD) * Access to the Tesla Supercharger network enabling long-distance travel * Much better UX and constant improvements in OTA software updates. * Buying from a company that is all-in on electrifying and decarbonizing the world, and isn't just dipping in their toes for the granola crowd. * A way more attractive car compared to the Leaf's awkward hatch
So it's your contention that 95% of HackerNews can see the future of EVs, but all the major manufacturers have and/or are going to miss it?
Shaky bull thesis, my friend.
https://insideevs.com/nissan-starts-selling-green-credits-pu...
My "vision" for the future of EVs is that increasing range and decreasing prices will drive adoption. With sales of the Leaf totaling about 2 weeks of US auto sales, it is risky to expect it to represent Nissan's strategy.