Comment by jasode | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jasode | Hacker News Reader

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>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union.

To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements". Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't help people understand it better.

Would it be clearer for outsiders to look at it as a mostly economic independence? For example ... to use a (tortured) analogy, imagine that California wants to secede from the USA because citizens (especially the wealthy ones in Silicon Valley) feel too much of California tax dollars prop up poorer non-performing states like Mississippi and Alabama. Also, the corrupt USA federal government is spending too much $$ on unneeded military expenses like tanks and bailing out Wall Street. Therefore, California feels its unfair and wants independence to run their own affairs. To parallel a similar confusion of the "true point"... if we simply describe the independence movement as "State Secessionists fighting the Feds", it adds abstract labels to the opposing sides but doesn't really explain the situation.

Is there a more primary undercurrent to the Catalonia independence movement than the economic analogy above?

(One example of a Catalan pro-independence answer talking about economic grievances and corruption: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Catalans-want-to-secede-fr...)

There's a LOT of people in Catalonian independence movement (or nationalists).

I guess some are in for the economic advantages. Others are in because they feel culturally different. Others because Spain is too right wing. Or because they think its their historical right. Or because the new country would be better managed. Or because an independent Catalonia can better help the peoples of the world against the tyrants of capitalism and open their borders to immigrants (true story). And I guess some are in because they need to be in a team and relate to other people.

For most there will be a mixture of reasons (good and bad). The Spanish government torpedoed and blocked initiatives for more autonomy in the past fueling this feelings above the tipping point.

Many of the real problems behind were probably addressable within an evolved Constitutional frame which the defenders of the unity of Spain never cared to look at.

Note that independence does not necessarily mean economic advantage for Catalonia. In the EU they would have to help poorer EU countries. Outside of it they would not have access to the common market (they'd probably need to become a tax heaven).

> For most there will be a mixture of reasons (good and bad).

Are there objective criteria for figuring out whether a reason is good or bad? Or do you just mean your opinion?

Just my humble opinion

On tangential note, California should secede from US.

Trump would impose a tariff on all goods coming in. And I would hope th Us govt would shut down all military and US govt aid and jobs in California if so, regardless of political party

Tariffs would hurt US more than it would California. Tariff is a cost paid by US citizens to benefit non-competitive US suppliers.

And assuming it happened, how would California protect its borders from its neighbor US?

No, that way lies madness.

California needn't have heavy border patrol if US-California relations are peaceful. For reference: see European borders. You can just walk over to another country most of the time.

Why do you call ‘nationalists’ and ‘right-wing movements’ abstractions?

You're misunderstanding what I wrote. I'm not calling nationalists (the people) an "abstraction" to delegitimize or dismiss them.

I'm saying alexandrerond's first attempted explanation of the "true point" isn't very effective because he used abstract labels such as "nationalists". The subsequent paragraphs in that post referred back to "nationalists" creating a circular explanation.

His later reply to me had more concrete examples and motives instead of abstract labels such as "right-wing". Concrete text is what more readers can identify with (especially readers who are not familiar with Catalonia's situation.)

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